//Trail Status mouse over Java // First A frame Wood Feature

Author Topic: First A frame Wood Feature  (Read 11097 times)

Paul_Arlinghaus

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First A frame Wood Feature
« on: May 19, 2015, 02:49:26 PM »
Last week there was an injured rider at Town Run that required a parametric run. The fire department staff let us know most of their runs to Town Run are due to the first A frame.  The issue is that it elevates riders pretty high off the ground.


While we know that riders can get hurt on any section of trail and that there is assumed risk to mountain biking, we do want to ensure the trails are a safe a possible. 


That feature is also getting to a point age wise where it at minimum would need to be re-decked.  I will be reviewing the feature tomorrow with an Eagle Scout to discuss options to rebuild the feature in a way that reduces risks to riders while keep it fun to ride. 


Any one who would like to be involved in the discussion is welcome to join us at tomorrow at 5:30PM
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Willyjaybob

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Re: First A frame Wood Feature
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2015, 03:30:40 PM »
May we still give input if we are unable to attend the meeting..?
Willyjaybob
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Paul_Arlinghaus

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Re: First A frame Wood Feature
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2015, 04:15:34 PM »
Sure, 


Keep in mind that the goal is to provide challenge while minimizing risk.  The main risk factor seems to be the height of the feature.  If a rider panics at the top they are pretty high up in the air.
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Willyjaybob

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Re: First A frame Wood Feature
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2015, 04:37:31 PM »
IMO, leave it, although perhaps some signage similar to the 'DROP!' signage with a clearer indicator that riders can swing left if they opt would be appropriate. One thing that could be done is to modify the top/flat section into a wider platform so if someone loses momentum or freaks out and puts a foot down there is somewhere to put said foot. That, along with a sandy pit underneath to break falls may just make it safe enough without demolishing it altogether. Just a thought...


I really like the feature--features like that makes TR a little more tolerable for better riders that don't really love the trail but ride it to get their wheels spinning and get in shape for weekend riding, etc. My son rode it the first time I took him out last summer as a 13 year old and wanted to re-ride it immediately after. Got a little jittery the first time, but then was fine. Now he slams everything and is getting ready for his first DINO race. That little feature was good for him and made him a better, less afraid of obstacles rider than if he hadn't ridden it.





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Wall

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Re: First A frame Wood Feature
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2015, 04:56:20 PM »
I wonder if they are crashing on the way up or on the way down?  If they are falling off it while at the top perhaps it needs to be more of a bell shape instead of a table top so it can just be rolled without any changes in flow. 


If they are crashing coming down the back side it could be sloped a little more and widened which would allow more adventurous riders to jump it like a table top.

Hocky

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Re: First A frame Wood Feature
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2015, 05:04:59 PM »
If I had to guess, they're crashing because they're bumping a bar on the trees that it goes between and/or panic stopping at the top.  Either way, I hope it doesn't go away.  There is a ride around for a reason.  :-\

Draggon

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Re: First A frame Wood Feature
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2015, 06:13:48 PM »
IMO, leave it, although perhaps some signage similar to the 'DROP!' signage with a clearer indicator that riders can swing left if they opt would be appropriate. One thing that could be done is to modify the top/flat section into a wider platform so if someone loses momentum or freaks out and puts a foot down there is somewhere to put said foot. That, along with a sandy pit underneath to break falls may just make it safe enough without demolishing it altogether. Just a thought...

Your friendly, neighborhood font improver at work again...  (i.e. this message is just here to make the rest of Willy's message legible):

Quote
One thing that could be done is to modify the top/flat section into a wider platform so if someone loses momentum or freaks out and puts a foot down there is somewhere to put said foot. That, along with a sandy pit underneath to break falls may just make it safe enough without demolishing it altogether. Just a thought...

djkouza

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Re: First A frame Wood Feature
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2015, 06:26:10 PM »
hmm.. I would have thought the second A-Frame would have caused more issues. as it leads right into a turn so if your not paying attention you may overshoot the turn.  Need to setup a Deer Cam pointed to that A-Frame and figure out what is causing the crashes :)  Seriously though as other have stated it could be useful to analyze where people are having the issue.
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mtbikernate

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Re: First A frame Wood Feature
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2015, 07:07:03 PM »
It's not a difficult feature. But the consequences are high so the people who DO have a problem with it run a high risk of a more severe injury. Consequences don't have to be high to make something challenging.


My vote would be to drop the height, but make it narrower. Increase the challenge, reduce the potential consequences.


Due to its location, most riders approach it with a lot of speed, so that should affect what it's replaced with. Anything with curves should probably be out of the question in that spot.


My thought right now would be a skinny leading to a drop.





djkouza

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Re: First A frame Wood Feature
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2015, 07:10:16 PM »
I like the idea of a skinny ramp, I'd be for that.  Your right you typically have decent speed going in, that is why I like this one, it's a good place to practice using your weight to keep your momentum.
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Seth Hildebrand

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Re: First A frame Wood Feature
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2015, 10:50:35 PM »
I'd bet more than a few riders are intentionally hitting it to launch. I've seen people hit jumps and back track so that they can ride the same feature multiple times. This is exactly what I would do if I were still young!

With that said, if it needs rebuilding I'd probably make it lower/safer. Make sure that potential air time is due to the variable of 'speed' as opposed to 'height'. This way it is more on the rider to determine how high they want to travel before impact.

ryantrek

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Re: First A frame Wood Feature
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2015, 07:19:50 AM »
 Paul,
     While I appreciate your desire to make the trail a safe and fun place for everyone, and your attempts at making EVERYONE happy, people need to take a moment and consider the calculated risks in certain out door sports. I thoroughly understand that as a leader in the group, ultimately after much calculated thought, the decision will be left up to what's in the best interest of the trail system and keeping it alive. In the case of this particular up and over, there is adequate ride around for it, and plenty of time to make the decision of left or right. I know, I rode left for a LONG time when I first started riding until Hocky finally talked me into riding over the bridge. I know how people crash on the bridge, I've almost done it. If you don't hit it square, you ride right into the tree that it's through the middle of. Catch a bar, catch a helmet, etc.. Does this warrant a complete redo or removal? In my opinion, no. Would a cheaply made ply wood and 4x4 sign that says DANGEROUS BRIDGE ------> RIDE AROUND <------- be a good idea? Certainly. Those of us that ride it every lap know it's there, know what it is, and know how to ride it. New riders will at least have a warning in front of them that will allow them a moment to slow down and look at the obstacle and make the decision if it's for them or not.
 
I don't think I have to tell you given my post, but my vote is to leave it.
 
Maybe add some padded hand rails on the sides so people can't fall off of it, or bump their heads on the rails.  :P 

SpecialEd

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Re: First A frame Wood Feature
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2015, 09:07:14 AM »
I completely agree with ryantrek. If there were no ride around on this feature then maybe it would be an issue. Since there is plenty of ride around, a simple sign should warn less skilled riders away from the a frame. I think the feature is great as is and should not be modified in any way. Just because someone was hurt on it does not make it a dangerous feature. That same person who got hurt on the a frame could have just as easily hit a tree, and you wouldn't cut down that tree, would you?
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Zinjanthropus

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Re: First A frame Wood Feature
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2015, 11:02:36 AM »
As much as I hate to see this feature Nerf'ed I also trust and respect Paul's decision to make an adjustment to it. With enough thought and ingenuity I'm sure we as a community can come up with a design that's equally rewarding yet uniquely different while adding some safety to the equation.

No, you can't fix people- there will always be those that go faster than they can safely control, make an error in judgment and miscalculate distance, or catch a bad break due to plain happenstance and wind up getting hurt. I have warned every new rider I bring or encounter that TRTP eats people. Yes for the volume of traffic it hosts the odds are greater for more injuries, but even the experienced types get taken out here and there unfortunately.

Considering the likely percentage of injuries incurred at the large tabletop I'm a little surprised signage wasn't installed long ago. If the feature wasn't to be modified then it certainly needs a sign since increasing numbers of uninformed and inexperienced riders are riding the trails. My only concern with altering this tabletop is it can open the can which causes all other trail challenges to be reviewed and possibly Nerf'ed as well. I also accept that TRTP is more or less a beginner trail by default, so all technical qualities are luxuries we should remain grateful for always and not take for granted.

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tgentry

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Re: First A frame Wood Feature
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2015, 11:37:09 AM »
Could something like a much smaller version of this be considered? It is till an elevated wood platform with bit of a gap and maybe ~6-12" step up leading to small ramp and jump to get off? Being lower, the problems with falling from so high could be avoided and with the gaps at each end, it would be quickly visually apparent that it would be for experts only. I know the first time at town run, my wife went straight up and over the current feature without thinking much about it until she was on top of it.



 

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