//Trail Status mouse over Java // Sandbag

Author Topic: Sandbag  (Read 5256 times)

ess121212

  • Training wheels on
  • *
  • Posts: 30
    • View Profile
Sandbag
« on: July 21, 2014, 12:17:15 PM »
I was looking at the times from the race this weekend and found the numbers interesting. Looking at at catt 3 mens time. I feel in my opinion only ,that if ur doing lap times almost the same as Matt Batten you should man up and move up to cat 2. I understand training and having a good year and running for the title but if you're doing that well it's time to move up.I'm not pointing fingers I'm not trying to make anybody upset I'm sure it goes on in all categories I just wanted to speak my mind. :'(

Unfit Nitwit

  • Guest
Re: Sandbag
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2014, 01:13:28 PM »
Is there a rule about being moved up after placing first or high up in your category after a number of times?

Otter

  • Should be riding....
  • ***
  • Posts: 300
    • View Profile
Re: Sandbag
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2014, 02:02:37 PM »
I've definitely seen sandbagging before, but I'm not sure this is it.  The Cat 3 times look very similar to the top times from last year (maybe even slower) and don't seem that out of the ordinary to me.  If my math is correct, IF the top Cat 3 guys could hold their 1 lap pace for the 3 laps that the top Cat 1's ride, they would be roughly 20 minutes slower over the course of the race.  That doesn't seem overly competitive to me.  Again, I've got no dog in the fight, but I don't think this would qualify as Sandbagging.

RJ

  • **
  • Posts: 87
    • View Profile
    • Indy's best bike shop!
Re: Sandbag
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2014, 06:17:35 PM »
If you're racing within the Dino series rules It's not sandbagging. If you want to beat the fast guys then just get faster. My .02 cents.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2


RT

  • HMBA-IMBA Member
  • *
  • Posts: 105
    • View Profile
Re: Sandbag
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2014, 08:07:23 PM »
Otter is correct.  Your top Cat 3 was 43:45.  44mins X 3laps = 2hrs 12mins(132mins).  That is IF they can hold that speed for 3 laps.  Cat 3 is just a sprint lap basically.  You can go all out and not have to worry about "hitting the wall".  Hard to blow up in 44 mins so based on this I would hardly say this is even close to sandbagging....Your top Cat 1 Ryan Knapp was 1hr 53mins(113mins) if that puts things in perspective.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 08:11:35 PM by RT »

Dave G.

  • Global Moderator
  • Should be riding....
  • *****
  • Posts: 1894
  • HMBA Southwestway Park Trail Rep
    • View Profile
Re: Sandbag
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2014, 05:47:47 AM »
IIRC if one crushes the entire field three times in a row, one gets "kicked upstairs"

Sent from my XT555C using Tapatalk 2

David Gardner
Husband, Granddad, Mountain biker
Southwestway Trail Bum

holzhaus

  • HMBA-IMBA Member
  • Should be riding....
  • *
  • Posts: 757
    • View Profile
    • http://www.DINOseries.com
Re: Sandbag
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2014, 07:47:35 AM »
Four top three overall finishes in a season activate the mandatory upgrade rule. (in Cat2 or Cat3 men)

Gochenour

  • Training wheels on
  • *
  • Posts: 41
  • Passion, Practice, Persistence, Patience
    • View Profile
    • Gochenour's Strava
Re: Sandbag
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2014, 06:01:52 PM »
That's the way I thought the rules existed. Thanks Brian.

For anyone else that may be curious...


Mandatory Upgrade Policy:
DINO requires Cat3 Men to compete in Cat2 in the following situations:
  • The rider placed in the top three overall in points the prior season.
  • The rider won first place series points in his age group the prior season. (i.e. all jersey winners). Exception: a rider placing lower than 10th overall in the series is exempt from this rule.
  • Any Cat3 Men rider who wins top three overall, four times in the current season, must move to Cat2 at the next race.
DINO Rules:

http://www.dinoseries.com/indiana-mountain-bike-series/

USAC Rules:

http://www.usacycling.org/news/user/story.php?id=4220
« Last Edit: August 04, 2014, 06:19:33 PM by Gochenour »
"How do you get to Carnegie Hall? Practice, practice, practice."
"Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts."

LetsRoll

  • Training wheels on
  • *
  • Posts: 38
    • View Profile
Re: Sandbag
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2014, 11:50:50 PM »
I'm glad someone brought this up because I've had a few questions about this season. How is it that Cat 2 racers have been allowed to drop down into Cat 3 mid-season ? I trained last winter and have worked hard to improve in my category only to be beaten by racers who decided to "drop down" mid- season. It doesn't seem fair. If you want to "drop down" I feel like you should have to wait until next season to do so if you started the series in a higher category. My biggest question is to those individuals who I speak of, if you place in the top 3 in 3 races or more are you going to follow DINO protocol and move yourself back up to Cat 2 or do you plan to hang out in Cat 3 and dominate for the next couple of years ? If you move back up then what was the point ? I know that the best solution is to work harder and try to beat these individuals but I felt these questions still needed to be asked.
What kind of bike do you have?
It's a Sledgehammer.
Dang! You got shocks, pegs ...lucky!
You ever take it off any sweet jumps?

john7722

  • Guest
Re: Sandbag
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2014, 05:51:59 AM »
LetsRoll: Hopefully this will answer your Questions. This is an exchange between Holzhousen & my self.

I am just racing for fun this year. I was diagnosed with Multiple Sclerosis quite some time ago, but untill this last year I was able to keep it in check.
So! I don't know how I'm going to feal day to day!  My dilemma is! I am to slow for Cat 2 but probably too fast for Cat 3. What I am trying to say is I will be very inconsistent from race to race.

If it would make it fair? I will go back to cat 2 otherwise I will finish out at 3 for this year.
Thanks
John



On Jul 10, 2014 11:26 AM, "Brian Holzhausen" <brian14@dinoseries.com> wrote:
Hi John,
As I recall, you raced in Cat3 sunday because you missed the Cat2 start.
I'm checking to see what you'd like me to do with your points - I can convert points per our rules either way.. just need to know which category you plan to be in for the rest of the season (assuming you will race more of them).

Thanks.

Glad to have you with us this weekend, Hope you enjoyed the extra long kayaking trip!

Brian Holzhausen
DINO Director
317-336-7553
www.DINOseries.com
We will have them at Versailles, but I’m not sure whether they will be around Saturday afternoon / Sunday. Depends on who is pulling our trailer.

Amanda told me about your MS getting worse. Sorry to hear that, I hope that you’ll have many more good days than bad ones!

It’s not really a problem to jump back and forth, especially since you haven’t raced too much this year you won’t be in contention for series. You can even take it race by race this year and I just won’t compile points until we see which you end up doing more of.

Or if you want to commit to staying in one Cat we can do that as well.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2014, 05:56:04 AM by john7722 »

LetsRoll

  • Training wheels on
  • *
  • Posts: 38
    • View Profile
Re: Sandbag
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2014, 04:58:39 PM »
John, I'm very sorry to hear about your situation. It makes sense that you changed categories.
What kind of bike do you have?
It's a Sledgehammer.
Dang! You got shocks, pegs ...lucky!
You ever take it off any sweet jumps?

4mula1

  • **
  • Posts: 131
    • View Profile
Re: Sandbag
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2014, 08:55:56 PM »
I race Cat2 largely because if I'm going to drive 3+ hours to a race it's not gonna be for a race that will last under an hour.  Plus when my kid was racing in the U10 division I could ride with her which was fun.  I'm a mid-pack Cat2 racer at best and I think I'd do alright in Cat3, but I've done two NUE series races this year I don't think Cat3 is really an option anymore...

Dave Tozer

  • Should be riding....
  • ***
  • Posts: 527
  • HMBA/IMBA member and I have the socks to prove it!
    • View Profile
    • Image Gallery
Re: Sandbag
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2014, 09:48:20 AM »
These are just my thoughts. Not really responding to any individual. This is good discussion.

IMO, the “Beginner” class back when it was called that does not correlate well to today’s category 3, at least not significantly. There is a decent percent of riders that could still be “beginners” but category 3 has seen a big increase in the fitness and skill required to be in the top five overall and for that matter, even the top 5 in any age group. Before you start quoting lap times from years gone by, I don't think that is the whole equation. I think category 3 will have a very wide range of skills until a category 4 (if there is such a thing) is introduced.

All categories see complaints of sandbagging until maybe when you get to category 1 open, which I’ll never have to worry about.

A tremendous amount of blood, sweat and tears went into my category 3 age group win last year and I wouldn’t trade the experience for anything in the world. So much energy and training went into that, and as it ended up, I won my age group by a single point. One stinkin point! You can’t come any closer to not winning than that. I got way more than my money’s worth last year.

To my point about competitiveness, I got the win only because I had the maximum number of Pay Dirt points possible. Pay Dirt points haters are gonna hate Pay Dirt points, but to me it was part of the race series for people to use or not use. My point is that it took a monumental effort to win just one of the age groups and I needed every Pay Dirt point to do it.  From the races I did in the “Beginner” days, I don’t see them stacking up against our current category 3 if you are talking about an open or age group win.

Having said all of that, I wouldn’t go back to category 3 even if it were allowed. My goal was to get bumped up per the rules.  It became evident very early in the season that the overall win wasn’t realistic. I’m thrilled it worked out the way it did and love being in category 2 now. I don’t think I’m getting “more for my money” in category 2, it’s just fun in a different way. Fitness and pacing are at a different level, and that has been a fun challenge. I get that people want more miles. I do too this year.

Now if I’d only stop breaking collarbones… :(

alifford

  • Training wheels on
  • *
  • Posts: 14
    • View Profile
Re: Sandbag
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2014, 05:23:59 PM »
As one of the "fast guys/sandbaggers" in Cat 3 last year, I wanted to offer my opinion to this thread.  My first DINO race was in 2012, and I was lucky if I finished inside the top 20 in any given race.  I decided to get serious between 2012 and 2013, so I upgraded my equipment, joined a team, and started training and eating better.  I surprised myself last year when I started finishing up front at each race, but it was a nice change from the mid-pack results I had seen the year before.  I met the mandatory upgrade rule just before the Southwestway race last year, and gladly moved up to Cat 2.  It felt good to get a taste of the podium finishes in Cat 3, so I say just let a guy stand in the "spotlight" for a minute rather than analyze his lap times and call him a sandbagger. The DINO mandatory upgrade rule is fair, and if you train and eat right, you too will earn the title of sandbagger as well  :)
2011 Niner Air9, SRAM XX.
2013 Specialized SL4 Pro.
2005 Trek Liquid 25.

RJ

  • **
  • Posts: 87
    • View Profile
    • Indy's best bike shop!
Re: Sandbag
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2014, 08:03:21 PM »
Well said, Aaron.

 

Important Links

Join HMBA

 

Calendar

 

Trail Guide

 

Links