//Trail Status mouse over Java // Forum Issues

Author Topic: Forum Issues  (Read 17587 times)

Steel

  • Training wheels on
  • *
  • Posts: 37
    • View Profile
Re: Forum Issues
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2013, 11:50:01 PM »
If it is that important to you join the HMBA / IMBA.  It is only like $35 bucks annually.  How much do you spend on your bike, gear, trips to ride, fuel, ect?  The forum is the best resource for trail info in this state but there is also a lot of BS as well.  And you know what they say, money talks and BS walks.  My point is you can be a member of the forum and post all the stuff you want but the truth is your membership probably has a greater impact on the bottom line, building and maintaining trails.


I understand where you are coming from but some of us (i.e. college students, and many others) might have a job during the summer. Yes we might buy gear and stuff throughout the year but that shouldn't also have to be a $35 fee just to post that I want to go ride here and can someone meet me there.


We can't think of the $35 as a "fee" to post on the forum.  The membership in IMBA/HMBA goes to support mountain biking, everywhere, now and in the future.  Trails don't just happen.  It takes lots of money and lots of volunteer hours.  Without the membership dollars and volunteer hours none of the trails at the top of the forum would exist.
 
A few of the benefits, off the top of my head, that just IMBA provides to us.
 '
For the member.  I'm thinking about using the Subaru discount!
http://www.imba.com/membership/individual/benefits
 
Discounts on tools and supplies that we need to build and maintain trails.  Note, individual members also get these discounts.
http://www.imba.com/resources/trail-building/tool-resource-guide
 
Some benefits that HMBA gets.
http://www.imba.com/membership/club/benefits
 
Represents the Mountain Biking community for continued access to public lands.  Recent blog post as an example of what IMBA is doing.  Since all of our trails are on public land this is huge for us!  Access can never be taken for granted, especially in large urban areas like Indianapolis!
http://www.imba.com/blog/mike-van-abel/congress-talks-mountain-biking-and-other-public-lands-issues#comment-10868
 
Interesting study that was done that helps us gain and maintain access for mountain biking.
http://www.imba.com/resources/research/trail-science/environmental-impacts-mountain-biking-science-review-and-best-practices
 
For your IMBA/HMBA you get a lot!!!
 




I know the money is used in great ways but its still the fact that someone shouldn't have to pay to use a website that spreads the word and promotes mountain biking. That's all I was trying to get across
'11 Specialized Camber Expert
'95 Cannondale Killer V 500
and looking...

john7722

  • Guest
Re: Forum Issues
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2013, 10:09:00 AM »
I've been pondering this off and on all day!   This stuff really gets under my skin, which is why I'm not good at politics.   I'd like to say I find this idea to be a....   But I won't because in order to have a voice around here, there is a whole sticky post dictating proper etiquette for these forums as though we're all children.  I find censorship pathetic.  Forcing some code of ethics and morals on to other people is nonsense.  Especially when those people could be paying members whose voices should be heard no matter the tone and no matter who may take offense.  There are always people who will be offended no matter the tone.  It just puts everyone on edge wondering if they should even bother posting because they may just get it deleted and get a warning and then be under scrutiny from then on.  Organizations are in place to do the bidding of it's members. Typically, it's not the other way around.  Telling people how to talk is just wrong.

I don't know what problems have existed around here, but such is life when you deal with the public.  Parks and forests are public property that belong to tax payers.  They belong to the public, not the HMBA, not the IMBA!  These are organizations that should be representing the public, not closing themselves off as members only.   I find that absolutely ridiculous.  You would be considered a private club looking out for it's own interests.  Private clubs are never a good thing.... EVER!

 Maybe the HMBA has become more then it ever intended?  I don't know.  I feel it's grown beyond it's ability to separate itself now.  Your level of involvement in public lands has elevated you as a representative for the general public and not just your members.  You can't just dismiss non members without repercussions at this point.  There will be backlash.


I was just writing something similar! Must be "Parallel Thinking"  :D

gt ss

  • Guest
Re: Forum Issues
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2013, 04:32:54 PM »
I've been pondering this off and on all day!   This stuff really gets under my skin, which is why I'm not good at politics.   I'd like to say I find this idea to be a....   But I won't because in order to have a voice around here, there is a whole sticky post dictating proper etiquette for these forums as though we're all children.  I find censorship pathetic.  Forcing some code of ethics and morals on to other people is nonsense.  Especially when those people could be paying members whose voices should be heard no matter the tone and no matter who may take offense.  There are always people who will be offended no matter the tone.  It just puts everyone on edge wondering if they should even bother posting because they may just get it deleted and get a warning and then be under scrutiny from then on.  Organizations are in place to do the bidding of it's members. Typically, it's not the other way around.  Telling people how to talk is just wrong.

I don't know what problems have existed around here, but such is life when you deal with the public.  Parks and forests are public property that belong to tax payers.  They belong to the public, not the HMBA, not the IMBA!  These are organizations that should be representing the public, not closing themselves off as members only.   I find that absolutely ridiculous.  You would be considered a private club looking out for it's own interests.  Private clubs are never a good thing.... EVER!

 Maybe the HMBA has become more then it ever intended?  I don't know.  I feel it's grown beyond it's ability to separate itself now.  Your level of involvement in public lands has elevated you as a representative for the general public and not just your members.  You can't just dismiss non members without repercussions at this point.  There will be backlash.


I was just writing something similar! Must be "Parallel Thinking"  :D
it's replies like these that made the "applaud" option worthwhile.

gmcttr

  • HMBA-IMBA Member
  • Should be riding....
  • *
  • Posts: 478
    • View Profile
Re: Forum Issues
« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2013, 05:04:36 PM »
...it's replies like these that made the "applaud" option worthwhile.

Trimming the quotes in one's post goes a long way. ;)

Kevin M

  • Global Moderator
  • Should be riding....
  • *****
  • Posts: 270
    • View Profile
Re: Forum Issues
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2013, 09:17:33 AM »
"Be Considerate of Other Visitors."


That's one of the seven principles of Leave No Trace outdoor ethics. The principles make up a basic etiquette that allows multiple user groups to share their love of outdoor recreation while minimizing their impact. It's the work of decades of cooperation between public and private agencies. IMBA supports LNT, and some of the advocacy work that takes place on this forum is about educating trail users to tread lightly.


I see no reason that this same ethos shouldn't apply to the forum itself. Etiquette isn't authoritarian or dictatorial or censorship. It's basic human courtesy and common sense. There are plenty of other places on the internet for those who want to rant without accountability or without regard for their impact on other users or their impact on the way an advocacy organization is perceived (by, say, land managers).


In other words, I have no problem with moderating the forum to ensure that users are being respectful of others and of IMBA-HMBA's mission. I like the suggestion of leaving some portion of the site open to anyone who registers, while maintaining certain sections for paying IMBA members only.


In theory, the idea that this site increases IMBA-HMBA membership can be tested.  There is a database of registered forum users; there is a database of dues paying IMBA-HMBA members. What percentage of registered users also pay annual dues? How long is the typical interval between registering to use the forum and ponying up the $35? What percentage of forum posters never join IMBA?


These are all questions that could be answered, although I don't have the technical expertise to set up the queries of the databases. But I think that drastic changes to the forum should be data-driven if possible.


My hypothesis would be that about 20% of registered forum users are also IMBA members. (Naturally, I hope I'm wrong.)

Bentcrank

  • Should be riding....
  • ***
  • Posts: 973
    • View Profile
Re: Forum Issues
« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2013, 10:27:07 AM »
Quote
Trails don't just happen.  It takes lots of money and lots of volunteer hours.  Without the membership dollars and volunteer hours none of the trails at the top of the forum would exist

While this may be a valid statement for most of the trails listed above, Ferdinand has existed long before anything to do with HMBA was involved. French Lick paid to have their trails.

I can understand the reasoning behind this. I also see a catch 22 to the problem. I have been around a lot of forums over the years. The active ones are the big ones. Once they try to censor or not offend everyone, the traffic always drops off. If the traffic drops off, there is little to read. This will make other users drop off too. I have seen several thriving forums fade and disappear.

While I see being a member of the group is a very good thing for the trails. I think it will hurt getting new users with limited access. What needs to be done is educate and sell the reasons to be members to potential users. I see enough complaints on here about trail users that don't know correct etiquette.

Paul_Arlinghaus

  • Paul Arlinghaus
  • Global Moderator
  • Should be riding....
  • *****
  • Posts: 3013
  • Follow me to the next work session at Town Run
    • View Profile
Re: Forum Issues
« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2013, 10:33:34 AM »
I have crunched the data.  The Percentage of forum users who are HMBA members is 19.5%.  Also, over half of HMBA members do not have a user account on the HMBA forum.


HMBA: Director of Trail Development / Secretary

Paul_Arlinghaus

  • Paul Arlinghaus
  • Global Moderator
  • Should be riding....
  • *****
  • Posts: 3013
  • Follow me to the next work session at Town Run
    • View Profile
Re: Forum Issues / Censorship
« Reply #22 on: September 03, 2013, 10:49:15 AM »
 The moderation of the HMBA is not censorship. 
 
 If you have a political candidate that you do not like and someone places a sign promoting that candidate in your front yard, would you remove the sign or leave it?  Most people would remove the sign, because its placement in your yard would be interpreted by those driving by to mean that you support that candidate.  Removing the sign isn’t censorship.  The person who placed it is free to place the sign in their own yard.
The HMBA forum is HMBA’s property.  Anything said on it does reflect on HMBA.  We do know that those who oppose us read our forum and use content on the forum against us.  So we need to ensure that the content of our forum supports our mission as a 501 (c) (3) advocacy organization. 
Those wishing to post things that do not support HMBA’s mission are free to do so on other forums and internet mediums.
 
HMBA: Director of Trail Development / Secretary

Kswiss

  • **
  • Posts: 78
  • Kyle Schwab
    • View Profile
Re: Forum Issues
« Reply #23 on: September 03, 2013, 10:56:33 AM »
I do feel that this forum needs a usergroup for HMBA members only, maybe have a section of the forum only they can post.  Could post notes from HMBA meetings, upcoming proposals or something to that extent.  Keep members informed of, but non members don't necessarily need to see. 


However, I don't think removing all rights of posters is the right course.  Remove the ability of non registered users to post would be a good step though.  If you wanted to attempt to get more users out of the forum base, then maybe add something to designate the members from non members?


Throwing my 2 cents in the pile.

ryantrek

  • **
  • Posts: 81
  • Patches, the marble jersey
    • View Profile
Re: Forum Issues
« Reply #24 on: September 03, 2013, 11:04:50 AM »
 Paul, I appreciate you taking the time to explain your goal. I think what I'm reading in a round about way is that you're not wanting to have to baby sit the forum to make sure that anything unbecoming to the group is not left out there for other eyes to see, and then later possibly use against the group. Seems fair enough to me that people could put their petty differences aside and keep what they have to say factual, and informative to others. I for one appreciate having this forum to keep up on the local trails that I ride at least once or twice a week.

Bentcrank

  • Should be riding....
  • ***
  • Posts: 973
    • View Profile
Re: Forum Issues
« Reply #25 on: September 03, 2013, 11:24:36 AM »
Sorry, maybe wrong choice of words.

Censorship/moderation, no longer allowing someone to state their own opinion or feelings because it might offend someone who does not have the same opinions or feelings, in my experience is a bad thing. I do understand needing to keep the posts under control.

I fully understand not wanting the liability, but even on TV they state that the comments made by the announcers are not to be taken as the public stand that the network believes.

The opinionated posters are the ones who post a lot. A lot of posts help keep the forum alive. Just look at what the KYMBA forum used to be. It was huge, then they didn't like some opinions (I am not talking about posts that really do need to be deleted) and started banning users. Site is no longer alive and I feel the KYMBA membership hurts because of it, if there really is still a KYMBA.

HMBA may be able to survive, maybe not. But I am pretty sure there will still be people riding bikes.

I do not see a problem making people become USERS to post or see posts. I do see a problem making people pay $35 to post, even if it is for a good cause. If the numbers stated are close (20 - 30% users are imba members) then be prepared to drop your forum users down 70-80%. If they don't see a need to be a IMBA member now, I don't think this would change their mind.

Paul_Arlinghaus

  • Paul Arlinghaus
  • Global Moderator
  • Should be riding....
  • *****
  • Posts: 3013
  • Follow me to the next work session at Town Run
    • View Profile
Re: Forum Issues/ Criticism of HMBA volunteers
« Reply #26 on: September 03, 2013, 11:30:33 AM »
One thing that needs to stop on the HMBA forum is criticism of HMBA volunteers. 

HMBA counts on volunteers and too often before our volunteers get home and unload their tools, there is someone on the forum critiquing the work they did.  If they cut out a log there are those upset we are “sanitizing” the trails.  If we leave a log, there is another group posting that HMBA volunteers are elitist. 

HMBA has an obligation to support and protect our volunteers.  If you have questions or concerns about work being done, you may contact me through PM or email to discuss your concern.
 
HMBA: Director of Trail Development / Secretary

Paul_Arlinghaus

  • Paul Arlinghaus
  • Global Moderator
  • Should be riding....
  • *****
  • Posts: 3013
  • Follow me to the next work session at Town Run
    • View Profile
Re: Forum Issues
« Reply #27 on: September 03, 2013, 11:36:10 AM »
I find the political analogy completely irrelevant in this situation.  You are not dealing with a private yard when you interfere with public lands.  When you interfere with public lands, you are no longer shielded from public scrutiny.  If you want to continue to use your political analogy, I suggest you remove yourself from interfering with public lands and start purchasing private land for your own interests where you can then remove any and every comment you want and dictate to everyone how they should talk.

Every forum I've ever been on has a section clearly stating that their forum is not a representation of their goals, agenda, or whatever and is a melting pot of free ideas and encouraged discussion.

Which forums have you been on that are hosted by a 501 (c) (3) advocacy group? 
HMBA: Director of Trail Development / Secretary

David Kuehnen

  • Should be riding....
  • ***
  • Posts: 598
  • HMBA-IMBA member
    • View Profile
Re: Forum Issues
« Reply #28 on: September 03, 2013, 11:39:38 AM »
I find the political analogy completely irrelevant in this situation.  You are not dealing with a private yard when you interfere with public lands.  When you interfere with public lands, you are no longer shielded from public scrutiny.  If you want to continue to use your political analogy, I suggest you remove yourself from interfering with public lands and start purchasing private land for your own interests where you can then remove any and every comment you want and dictate to everyone how they should talk.

Every forum I've ever been on has a section clearly stating that their forum is not a representation of their goals, agenda, or whatever and is a melting pot of free ideas and encouraged discussion.
I think you are mixing up your own arguments here.  The yard analogy is specific to the right that  HMBA has  to ensure that there are no posts on ITS forum that could paint HMBA in a bad light.  Your rambling about private land appears to be a spillover from your rant on the Town Run Thread.  And it is misfounded as it is HMBA and its many hard working volunteers that have spent many hours to convince local land managers that mountain bikers are a good user group.  The land may be public but it is HMBA that has gained for mountain bikers the legal use of it.  If you want HMBA to stop "interfering" with public lands, you may want to consider buying your own property to ride on because HMBA is the main reason that you can ride at TRTP, BCSP, VCP, SWW and a number of other incredible mountain trails in Indiana.
David Kuehnen, PE

2019

FHSP    - 16 hr
TRTP.     - 8 hr

MikeHufhand

  • Guest
Re: Forum Issues
« Reply #29 on: September 03, 2013, 12:36:42 PM »
I'd like to see us keep the forum open.  Although some disagree, I've seen it become THE mountain bike trails hub that we intended it to be.  Way more positives than negatives.   In my experience, decision makers that we deal with(DNR, etc.)understand full and well what a forum is...and what a forum isn't.

 

Important Links

Join HMBA

 

Calendar

 

Trail Guide

 

Links