Are Trails Becoming Too Manicured

[sprint49]

I found this interesting article from pinkbike.com
 
http://www.pinkbike.com/news/Pinkbike-Poll-Are-Trails-Becoming-Too-Manicured-2013.html
Some food for thought.
Rod

[N9TKF]

Here is a good example of tax dollars at work. Hoosier National Forest has approximately 172 miles of Multi-use trails and approximately 5+ miles just dedicated to Mountain Biking. When you say there are too many easy trails consider riding these trails that are under utilized by Mountain bikers. I have never had to yield to another Mountain Biker going uphill on any of these trails. Truly an experience. Keep in mind that except for Tipsaw Trail all other trails (that are open to Mountain Bikers) are also open to horses adding to the experience. You can get all the white-knuckle, handlebar flipping, remote access, downhill, steep uphill,rooty, horse-boggy  single track/fire road mountain bike action than should be allowed for a daily trail pass fee of $5 or $35 for the year. May I also suggest O'Bannon Woods State Park, Ferdinand State Forest or even Martin State Forest.

All of these trails are with in an easy drive of the Evansville area are are begging to be ridden. Hope to see you on the trails!

[sprint49]

Who said there are to many easy trails? there is never enough trail of any level.  What the article pointed out is MTBing has a diverse group of participants.  I also posted this here on the Harmonie site because it's where I ride and build trail. This isn't about white knuckle riding or casual with the kids riding. It's about building trail diverse enough to stimulate riders of all levels.
Remember one mans white-knuckle ride might be someone's casual with the kids ride. It doesn't matter how you label it as long as we're having fun.
Rod

[N9TKF]

When I read the article that is what I took from it that there was too many easy trails, my opinion, there will always be differing opinion. What I was truly stating was there are other opportunities to ride trail built a little different. And lots of them not just in your back yard. It's all about fun, now back to kayaking. 

[Traci]

I agree wanderer about the multi use trails. I have a love hate relationship with them though.
I had my first experience riding MTB at Springs Valley.....Some of the trail was fun, but other parts were straight up and no fun at all.
We met one person on a horse, but saw them pretty far in the distance so we dismounted the bike as to not scare the horse.
I like having the option to ride on this type of trail as it provides different technical spots for me to experience. If I had to choose, it would be someplace with very few riders and great scenery.

I like the opportunity to come to HSP. It has something for everyone. Plus I know the trail well enough that if I don't want to ride sections, I can turn around and go back.

I appreciate all that this trail system has to offer. What a great opportunity we have living in Indiana to be to have so many options to ride.

[TimBarnes]

There was a good discussion about how the trails are developed and maintained on this thread, but it seemed out of place here.  I set up a new topic with all the posts associated with the discussion "Are Trails Becoming Too Manicured" for you guys who want to comment on the topic.


The trails in HSP are generally designed and maintained to IMBA standards per the Indiana DNR and the HMBA agreement.  We have already slipped some on this by not providing a bypass around the log "features", especially on the new section of the intermediate trail.  I won't get into chapter and verse, but these trails are expected to be set at a particular standard.  We need to follow these expectations whenever possible.  Therefore, the beginner and intermediate trails will be built and maintained to provide a safe, sustainable place for beginning and intermediate riders.  This includes manicuring them so nothing extends into the trail from the sides or overhead (8') to limit access to the trail, cause harm to any rider, or restrict line-of-sight for approaching riders.


Please PM me or stop me on the trails if you want more details or just want to discuss the development/maintenance of the trails at HSP.  I'll be the one who has the weedeater or chainsaw.  I'll add this post under the new topic for reference to that thread, too.

[sprint49]

When or are there plans to build an  expert trial at harmonie?

[smackgilbson]

Yes there is  a expert trail out there rod. Its on the other side of the Oka creek.  When is a different story. HSP has had no real funding since 2011.  But we have a 25 or 30 + mile trial system to build.  so what breaks. guys like you and I... Ron and Tim spending hours and months digging and maintaining trail so we and others can ride.  I have been a part of this trail system since 2007. I'm proud of what is there and what i know is to come.  That trail just alone has helped mountain biking grow in our tristate area period.  I wouldn't trade my part of it for anything in the world. 

[Traci]

Just to add for what it is worth....
The more trail you build, the more you to have to maintain....take a look at some of our other park systems on the HMBA and the struggles they are having with this situation. Be prepared to have a group of people who can maintain what you are building so to not change it from the posted "beginner", "intermediate" posting that it is.
I think it is great how far HSP has come with the trails. I know it is what got me hooked to riding on the trails and I appreciate all that the locals do to keep the trail as good as it is.
Keep up the great work.

[sprint49]

Thanks for the info. on the future expert trail Zack. I’ve heard rumors, but it’s nice to see it in writing. Is that section flagged, if so point me in the right direction and  I’ll be there Rhino in hand. Evan a few dedicated builders can get a lot of trail built in a short period of time. Ron built half of the new section by himself last winter. Building trail is as much apart of mountain biking as riding your mountain bike and, just as much fun, and a good way to stay in shape for riding. Zack you should be proud of the HSP trail system. Your efforts over the years are greatly appreciated. You my not get a lot of credit but those of us that ride and build at Harmonie know you have been the instrumental at getting new trail built.   
 If mountain biking is growing then someone is profiting. just maybe those that profit would be willing to invest in the trail system that is making them profit. We don’t seem to be organized enough to take advantage of the possible contributors. It would be nice to see a page on future plans for Harmonie and a little more info on trail build guidelines as they apply to HSP  . Communicating on forums is often a challenge. Often when your trying to have a constructive conversation, someone gets there feelings hurt or take the conversation in a totally different direction or there is no response because would be contributors don’t want to get evolved in forum conversations. Hopefully we can all get on the same page and move forward.
 Rod

[N9TKF]

If you are talking about me, my feelings aren't hurt. I did not mean to hi-jack the thread but I was trying to point out the diversity and the difference between a manicured/groomed trail system (Harmonie State Park) and others that are not well maintained at all in Southern Indiana (Hoosier National Forest Trails) and what we can learn from them for future trail building oppurtunities.
The challenge for the future is to have enough volunteers to maintain and build trails.
 
Posters on the forum often  differ in opinion on things but I am always moving forward. Now we have others thinking about the future of Harmonie which is a good thing.
 
I appreciate all efforts of those that build and maintain trails.
 
 
 
 
 
 

[ryantrek]

 That was a good read for sure. I certainly can appreciate the points made by the author. I can tell you, being a re-born newb myself that if I had first ridden a trail the scared the crap out of me, I likely would not be nearly as into it that I have become. Luckily for me, my riding buddies started me out at Town Run (2 minutes from my house, which helps even more). That is a trail that, during my first trip out on the bike, I felt was challenging and fun all at the same time. I have now ridden that loop roughly 10 times, and I feel I am ready to move on to something a little bigger and a little better. Will I give up town run when I move on to a bigger more technical course? NO WAY!! I feel like the best thing to offer, if you are going to offer trails, is a network that will challenge everyone!!

[Bentcrank]

"Ferdinand was a mix of good and horrible, mostly horrible"

I'm hurt 

[sprint49]

If you are talking about me, my feelings aren't hurt. I did not mean to hi-jack the thread but I was trying to point out the diversity and the difference between a manicured/groomed trail system (Harmonie State Park) and others that are not well maintained at all in Southern Indiana (Hoosier National Forest Trails) and what we can learn from them for future trail building oppurtunities.
The challenge for the future is to have enough volunteers to maintain and build trails.
 
Posters on the forum often  differ in opinion on things but I am always moving forward. Now we have others thinking about the future of Harmonie which is a good thing.
 
I appreciate all efforts of those that build and maintain trails.

In know way was I pointing fingers at you or anyone on this thread. I'm sorry if sometime my bluntness offends someone. Believe me it's not intended to, but I'm probably not going to change anytime soon.  I was talking about forum conversations in general.
My first white knuckle ride was Sycamore. then it was my first trip down the walnut connector to the then picnic  table graveyard I road the road back because I was sure I couldn't make it back on the trail. When Carla and I first made the connector both ways "It was a high five moment". I've had a lot of "Hi five moments" since then on a lot of different trails and just want to keep improving my skills and experience as many of those hi hand slaps as possible.
Lets all work together and build trails that all levels can enjoy and challenge themselves if they wish.
Rod

[TimBarnes]

When we prove we are committed to maintaining the existing trails, we will be allowed to build the expert trail per Paul Arlinghaus, HMBA president.  We wouldn't have been able to extend the Walnut Connector past the picnic tables if we hadn't shown we were willing to keep Sycamore and Walnut in good shape per HSP superintendent Jim Grey. Finding resources to maintain a trail is always a bigger challenge than building new trail.  Everyone wants new trail, but few people will even carry a folding pruning saw or clippers with them to help maintain a trail.  Most people won't even slow down to remove debris from a recent storm. During all my time on the trails, I have only seen one other person doing routine maintenance (Ron raking leaves) on a trail once.  Jeremy helped with downed trees by storms also when I was out-of-town.  But "work days" are "new trail build days" at HSP.


And that's okay.  I enjoy maintaining the trails - watching over them.  HMBA has helped me with the appropriate tools, including a BOB trailer from Nebo Ridge Bicycles in Indy.  HMBA has provided money for Alex Stewart to both design new trail and repair existing trail.  Alex has provided excellent training to some of us who have been fortunate to work with him during his visits.  Either Paul or Alex are responsible for approving new trail layout before it is built.  When the work becomes too big for me, the HSP staff gives me a hand, like the trimming recently done.


I believe the Sycamore Loop is the best beginner trail in the area, bar none.  If I worked in a bike shop and was selling a newbie a mountain bike, I would recommend the first place they ride it is Sycamore.  I want to keep that trail like that.  I want campers with BMX bikes to feel comfortable on Sycamore.  The first experience with trail riding should be as positive as possible.  That can be translated as "having fun on the bike". 


Walnut is definitely a step up.  It is truly an intermediate level trail and provides enough challenge for the beginner to get better.  The planned expert trail will be awesome, too.  It is set in a very hilly part of the park that will allow many features for those brave enough to try them.


Finally, there is approximately 10 miles of trail that needs to be maintained.  An additional mile has been flagged for construction to complete the Walnut Connector to Artesian Well Road.  So 11 miles to maintain soon.  There are plans for an expert section and also a connector between the campground and the mountain bike trailhead to replace the Trail #2 connector (three big hills!).  As long as everyone realizes we are committed to the existing trails, we will be able to continue to extend them.