Sunday Strava Segment rider....

[Shane Pettiner]

I don't think it is new riders bombing down hills. It is most likely people who have been riding for a while and they probably know the rules of the trail, i just think they don't give a crap. I might be stereo typing here, but new riders don't typically wear some kind of "kit" when they first start. There are days i'm surprised there are not fist fights from trail users arguing over who has the right of way.

[heartland]

Why are common sense solutions always ignored when it comes to marking trails ?
If the park map has letter designations for the trails ! Then put that letter on the marker @ the trail Junctions. Am I crazy ? Or is that a logical solution?
I am dumbfounded at the lack of  proper yet simple trail markings.
I cannot even tell you how many people we come across that Brown County that are lost and turned around or can't find the parking lot from which they started!
How about a "P" for Parking? pretty simple and straight forward and LOGICAL!
Don't use lack of funding as an excuse ! Several people on this forum have offered to pay! I have offered to pay for markers  @ O'Bannon, but that was quickly denied.
I have said it before and I will continue to say it! Indiana has some of the poorest mark trails I have ever been on ! It simply cannot be this difficult to get the trails marked properly.

Uh....

I think the BCSP trails are pretty well marked. I mean, there is a map at each intersection. Some people will get lost no matter what, and there may be room for improvement, but the trails are well signed IMHO. Heck, some places (the Slaty Fork area in WV springs to mind) have far more trails and far less signage. You can't get around that place without a good topo map and the skills to read it.

Regarding the letters -- there is also a key at the bottom of the state park map that explains the "D" trail = Hesitation Point etc., so I'd hazard the guess that maybe, just maybe, those folks aren't reading the map too carefully (or haven't been taught how to read maps). Adding letters to the intersection signs might help, but I don't think it's 100% necessary.

Regarding inconsiderate/uninformed downhillers -- I've noticed an uptick in people not yielding as well. My strategy has been to (firmly but politely, so far) say something like "Yield to the uphill rider, please." I'm in favor of adding the "Yield"  sign to the major trail heads.

[john7722]

 No one seems to realize that for those of us that ride Brown County all the time ! Navigation is pretty straightforward . Now remove yourself from being a local rider. Put yourself in the position of a new rider or new visitor to Brown County! the Maps and markers can be confusing. Part of the blame but not all can be given to the rider for not knowing how to read a map.

[tommarsh]

Some of the most common questions i get asked when at intersections are
 
1. Which way is back to the north gate parking lot?
 
2. Which way is hesitation point?
 
Maybe adding signs that point to the major trail heads would help at every intersection.

[too_many_cats]

I like the opportunity to talk to riders new to the park when I see them puzzling over the park map at an intersection. I get to feel friendly and helpful, find out a little about them, and maybe they go away thinking that BCSP has nice folks as well as nice trails. Plus, I get to learn about the trails where they live that I should visit.

I think adding letters to the existing signs would be helpful but not strictly necessary since it isn't that hard to take a moment to ask if someone is lost or how they like the park. Just my $0.02.

[gnawbonelefty]

 No one seems to realize that for those of us that ride Brown County all the time ! Navigation is pretty straightforward . Now remove yourself from being a local rider. Put yourself in the position of a new rider or new visitor to Brown County! the Maps and markers can be confusing. Part of the blame but not all can be given to the rider for not knowing how to read a map.

I hear comments all the time that the trails are well marked and easy to navigate.   I have shown lost hikers the fastest ways out before, because they've gone too far.  but the routes I've shown aren't on the maps. they were not lost,  just out longer than they planned.
,anyway.  I would support the with an arrow symbol pointing to the fastest way back to the north gate.  that would help way more than letters.  We did have maps at the intersections at one point,  but we outgrew them quickly.

On a side note,  it's interesting a thread on gps riders turns into folks getting lost.,  maybe the answer is in the subject.  the horse trails all have letters,  but being loops, it doesn't really help you figure the best way back.
there is one sign out the at a 5 way  intersection all with distances back to the car.

[Webby]

I just started riding back in June of this yr..   Here is where I stand on some of the issues brought up on this thread.

• I can relate to the maps and the keys on the maps.  My problem was having to unfold the map to get to the key at the bottom of the map, to see where the heck I was or was heading to.  (( the signage @ BCSP is pretty good I think. But, I agree that putting a "P" with an arrow pointing the way to the parking lot would be helpful )) IMHO
• I learned trail etiquette from my LBS owner as I asked questions BEFORE going on my first trail. ** I didn't find HMBA until a couple months after I started riding ** Then I got to read the proper trail etiquette first hand. So, I agree with Shark on the new riders not knowing the trail rules and with Shane on new riders BOMBING down hill in full garb.
• I MAKE it a point to yield to WHOM EVER I encounter whether they are going UP HILL or DOWN HILL or HIKING. ( My thought has always been that I'm just out for a leisure ride/exercise and enjoyment while I know some of the more experienced riders/racers ARE out trying to post some sort of personal goal speed wise. SO, I just try and get out of their way if I SEE them first or hear them call out "Rider Up".  )  And so far,,  EVERY hiker I've encountered and pulled over for has motioned for me to proceed. And I always tell them THANKS.
• I do use the Strava APP on my phone. BUT,, I only use it bc I'm a gadget kinda guy and I like to see my route I've ridden that day on a satellite map when I get home. And sometimes post it on FB for my friends that MTB to see.  I do not try to beat my times as I've hardly ever ridden the same trail the same way 2x in a row. My goal is to pedal up a section of hill I've not been able to make it up yet without HIKING. lol   I usually start the app when I get on my bike and then stop it when I get off.  AND I've found out that the ENDOMONDO app works better on my phone GPS wise than the Strava app.   

• I've encountered some RUDE riders at BCSP and at VSP. 98% of the riders I've encountered so far are very friendly and polite & understanding to NOOBs.

Since I started riding in June,, I've only worn my camo pants while riding (new digital style) with some sort of "T" shirt. I ride a Raleigh Talus 5.0 with RED rims.  So, if I have ever caused you some sort of grief on the trails it was purely out of NOT KNOWING I was doing it and I APOLOGIZE to you,,, believe me, I'd never do it out of disrespect. If I ever do, just let me know so the next time I'll know what "NOT" to do. 

Oh,,  and I must say that VSP has the best SIGNAGE I've found yet.  Being a NOOB, they helped me a bunch as I didn't have to dig my map out of my pocket, which was soaked with sweat and falling apart and try to figure out where I was. They even have the "YOU ARE HERE" logo on the trail map at each intersection.   

Have a great day ladies and gents. I'm off tomorrow and I'm hoping for a GREEN @ BCSP.   

[Hocky]

The trail marking at VSP is definitely excellent.  Those posted maps made it quick and easy to ride for the first time.

[Shark]

The park maps don't help with references to letters and most general public not understanding how to read the key.
If the map was color coded and the name of each trail beside, that would be better for most I'd guess. Also, mini maps with "You are here" at the intersections would help. I've guided out some folks that were going in circles for hours. For those that can't navigate or read a map, the you are here pointers might be the only thing available.

[wabasso]

I got an e-mail from a friend of mine that has never ridden at BCSP.   Loves to ride technical trials.  So he wanted to go to BC to ride trail “H." I'm like .. What is he talking about?  I ride there all the time & don't know trail "H".   Turned out once I looked at the BCSP trail map it was Schooner.  He’s getting the letter “H” right off the map, so why would he call it “Schooner”?   

You've got Epic Trail status!  (Yay BCSP!)  You have lots of guests from everywhere.  Why not make it as easy as possible to navigate?

... & I don't understand not handing out a simple card with "Trail Etiquette" (I modified the IMBA just slightly) right with the trail map at the front gate.  The same triangle of yield applies to everyone that is asking for a trail map right? 

[David Kuehnen]

The hiking trails only have a number but the mountain bike trails  and shelters all have unique names so it does not make sense to call them by their letters.     Those letters only have relevance in the context of the state park map, so we would really only be adding to the larger pool of confusion if those letters were added tot he trail markers.  The inclusion of the map key letters  on the markers would also make them too "wordy" , and that is not good for any sign.


I think that there is a decent amount of signage on the trails but I would also agree that maps mounted to the information kiosks  at North Tower lot, Upper Shelter, Hesitation Point, Hoosier's Nest and the Campground would definite help people understand the layout of the trails better. 

[ess121212]

Why dont we make the trails oneway ? Change the direction every week. I dont like it, but someone is going to get hurt. Not to mention, I am riding with my son , who is 4 , I am worried about someone smoking him. They would have to add some more trails for conectors, but with ALL the people that ride there. Just think how many times you have about bit with someone. Just saying   

[Webby]

The park maps don't help with references to letters and most general public not understanding how to read the key.
If the map was color coded and the name of each trail beside, that would be better for most I'd guess. Also, mini maps with "You are here" at the intersections would help. I've guided out some folks that were going in circles for hours. For those that can't navigate or read a map, the you are here pointers might be the only thing available.

hehe  I once had my map in my pant pocket and after about 2-1/2 miles into it I realized I'd lost my map.  Then after continuing on. I found a map that someone else had lost.     Funny how that works !  lol  I've been at BCSP enough now that I don't really need a map. But, when you go to a NEW place. THEY sure are nice to have.  Just sayin'

Oh, and I too have a friend that is more than capable of reading maps & keys on maps. But, when I've talked of riding @ BCSP and I mentioned WALNUT trail to him. He said, " is that trail F " ?  Then I have to get my map out and look @ the key to see which trail Walnut is. He had only ridden there a few times. But, had never ridden Walnut yet. So, I guess different ppl have different ways of remembering trails. 

[Unfit Nitwit]

The "P" sign would be great, since most of the time I see people trying to figure their way back to the parking lot.
Just so long as there is no trail "P" on the map to get confused with, right?

[Shark]

Why dont we make the trails oneway ? Change the direction every week. I dont like it, but someone is going to get hurt. Not to mention, I am riding with my son , who is 4 , I am worried about someone smoking him. They would have to add some more trails for conectors, but with ALL the people that ride there. Just think how many times you have about bit with someone. Just saying

One way trails are boring! Yes, they are needed when there is limited mileage and alot of riders, like town run. But not at places like bcsp that has over 30 miles.
Maybe you should only let your 4 year old ride directional trails until he is old enough that it is safe for him.
In 9 years of riding, I have never, not once, run into anyone or had anyone run into me