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Author Topic: Sand bag  (Read 7010 times)

ess121212

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Sand bag
« on: August 13, 2012, 08:23:49 AM »
If you are racing {catt3 } and win, or do the race around the same time as the catt 1 does lap times. It is time to move up. Or does it make you feel cool to be a sand bag ?

scott

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Re: Sand bag
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2012, 01:38:19 PM »
After looking at the logansport results, it does not appear that any of the Cat3 guys were turning laps at the same pace as the cat 1 guys. 


Usually people will not move up until they have the series locked up. 


P.S. Sand bagging is fun.  It is a great way to get some free 800gram kenda claw tires. 

craigebaker

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Re: Sand bag
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2012, 02:41:23 PM »
Finishing first once is not sufficient reason to Cat up. In addition, the field was half or less of it's usual size yesterday, which makes it much more likely for everyone to finish in a higher position than normal. Finally, it's very feasible that someone could finish a single lap with a very fast time, but doing that same speed for two additional laps would be impossible for that same person. If they could do three laps at the same speed as the Cat 1 group, I guarantee you they would bump up due to boredom.

I don't know too many MTBers who are happy with sandbagging. Actually, I've never met one person at all. There are some that can't get in enough training time to justify CATing up though. That's a good way to force people out of the sport. Many people have young families and it's just not feasible. Cycling can be a very time intensive hobby and the requirements are progressive as you move through the ranks.

The solution to this problem is to make race distance the same for everyone. Can't make everyone happy, but I do believe that it would facilitate retaining people who find themselves in CAT1 and looking at increasing training time that is already hard to come by. I'm sure there are other solutions as well. Some people would rather do longer races, so that is another issue that would need to be sorted out. The bottom line is that it should be organized in a way that optimizes bringing in an retaining racers. I'll have to defer to Brian / DINO on this since they have 15 + years of experience and a very vested interest.

I have to say, I don't want to poke fun, but the sarcastic point below regarding the benefits of sandbagging did make me chuckle out loud when I read it  ;D

matte1401

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Re: Sand bag
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2012, 03:52:49 PM »
It looks like the CAT3 times are pretty tightly spaced from the winner on down.  I'd agree that the times for CAT3 winner is pretty fast (~13mph by my calcs) and similar to the CAT1 speeds, but as Craig points out the CAT3s race was a lot shorter (~12mi vs. ~26 mi in CAT1).  I don't know where you'd draw the line between "sandbaggers" and the rest since there's no one person, or even group of people, are are clear outliers from the rest.  Seems pretty legit to me.
 
BTW, I may be a little off on the distances and avg speeds.  I'm going off memory of what Brian was saying on the bullhorn at the start: 1st lap at 5mi and the full lap at 7mi.  I used the same wrong distances for all the speed calcs so hope that it's directionally accurate!

mikejohnson

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Re: Sand bag
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2012, 04:03:17 PM »
The concept of same distance classes would never fly. I'm guessing an e-mail to USA cycling on that concept would likely go unanswered. All cycling disciplines (outside of bmx) require longer distances as competitors cat up. It isn't just those with restraints regarding training that are affected. I've been training over 10 hours a week for several years and as I've had some success it's always followed by a move up season that can be a little humbling. It is during those periods however when the best gains are achieved.

holzhaus

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Re: Sand bag
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2012, 04:23:24 PM »
Ah, the old sandbagging issue...


DINO's sandbagging rules are to discourage one or two people from just pulling away consistently from everyone. It is not to penalize those who are racing well.

This year, it seems to be a really competitive year between perhaps a half dozen riders in Cat3. Could those guys race Cat2? Definitely. Most of them will be required to go there next season and if they don't, and stay in Cat3 next year, they may be forced up mid season by the "top three overall in four races" upgrade rule. ([size=78%]http://www.dinoseries.com/indiana-mountain-bike-info.html#upgrade[/size]) As our races continue to grow in attendance, there is the chance we'll change the rules a bit, perhaps "top five overall in four races" for example.


But we don't want to force too many people up either, as pointed out by Craig. Riders do leave the sport because of it. If you're going for an age group or overall title, go for it, then commit to moving up next season.

I do agree races should get longer with higher Cat.

FYI, yesterday's lap lengths were approx 5.5 miles for 1st lap, 7.5 for other laps.

Thanks for joining us, it was a great weekend at France Park!

craigebaker

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Re: Sand bag
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2012, 05:10:53 PM »
Just for sanity check purposes, my calculations for lap times are as follows (based on leader times in each cat and excluding the first shorter lap):

cat 1 = ~29.5 minutes per full lap
cat 2 = ~31.7 minutes per full lap
cat 3 = ~31.9 minutes per full lap

Kudos to cat 3 for being basically the same as cat 2 lap speeds. I still have trouble wrapping my mind around the cat 1 times given they have extra distance requirements over the others and are still faster.

I confess that math was not my major so feel free to double-check it for me.....

matte1401

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Re: Sand bag
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2012, 05:17:38 PM »
Yeah, my original calcs were off.   Agree -- Cat2 and Cat3 speeds are pretty similiar and Cat 1 is a lot faster.   Here's where I'm coming out now with avg speeds of the winners of each race:
 
Cat 3 - 13mi, 14.1mph avg
Cat 2 - 20.5mi, 14.2mph avg
Cat 1 - 28mi, 15.2mph avg

jerrywr

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Re: Sand bag
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2012, 08:13:15 PM »
if there were a cat 4 ,  i would be king of the podium.
 
 cat 4 would be for married with kids full time job and slightly overweight.

Nhunt46051

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Re: Sand bag
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2012, 07:25:07 AM »
if there were a cat 4 ,  i would be king of the podium.
 
 cat 4 would be for married with kids full time job and slightly overweight.

There is a cat 4 it's just called clydesdale!!!   ;D

jerrywr

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Re: Sand bag
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2012, 07:10:45 AM »
clydesdale has a 200lb weight limit. i'm teatering day to day on that limit.

RDF73Charger

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Re: Sand bag
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2012, 08:43:25 AM »
I am glad someone put this out there. I wanted to start this topic but
was not sure anyone felt the same way. There simply are some people who should
move up but aren't. Also I think that some guys that are good have discovered mountain
biking and just started here. I am having a good season and setting my personal best times
at courses but finishing worse than last year. It is a little discouraging.
Maybe they were CAT 3 roadies and didn't realize that would be more like CAT 2 MTB.
Anyway, going to maybe try some road racing and charitiy rides and maybe a few Tri's.

Inept_MTBer

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Re: Sand bag
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2012, 10:05:27 AM »
I believe The Bike Snob had a unique take on how to curb the whole sandbagging thing.

http://www.bicycling.com/news/featured-stories/why-so-serious

As it pertains to the whole category, suggestion one was just that, no categories. Instead he proposes a "Thousand fred" cage match race. Everyone starts, best Fred wins the race.

Obviously this isn't completely do-able, but maybe it points to something to consider about over-saturation of categories.
Oh look, a dragonfl*CRUNCH!*

mdbhound25

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Re: Sand bag
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2012, 10:19:56 AM »
What is the form on racing Clydesdale? 
 
Let's say you are over 200 pounds such as 6'5" 215 as opposed to 5'9" and 215, is that frowned upon?  I guess you can be handicapped by your weight (especially regarding climbing and tight turns) no matter how tall or fit you are, right?

Grambo

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Re: Sand bag
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2012, 12:04:57 PM »
I had a big, long winded and uber-boring response that went into the definitions of each category, etc... etc.. etc... but sheesh, I was even boring myself typing it up.
 
I think the thing to keep in mind is this: It is AMATUER racing. If you're not racing Pro/Elite1 or full time for your paycheck then none of us are at risk of losing our big corporate sponsor if we don't finish in the top 3 of any race we enter. ESPN doesn't scamble to interview us after each race...etc.. etc.
 
We race because we LIKE to race. It gives us an excuse to travel to and ride courses that we normally wouldn't due to the job, kids, weekend honey-dos, etc... etc... etc., and a reason to continue to ride and keep in shape. It gives us goals to set and try to achieve. At our level and probably also our age... (I hate to break it to anyone, but if you're in your middle 20's or older and aren't already making a living on the bike as a pro rider, you probably aren't ever going to....), the goal should be to improve and only measure yourself against yourself. Are you getting more fit, able to ride faster, longer, climb better, lower body fat, better muscle tone, etc.. etc.
 
I prefer mtb racing over road racing `cause even when I come in last in my age group I STILL have a nice ride in the woods! It is FUN, and I always make new friends too when I attend races and get to know some of the folks I race with.
 
I would argue that if you think someone is sandbagging just to win, figure it shows a weakness of character on their part. How much fun is it to win a local amatuer race against others who you KNOW you can beat and don't have to really try to do it? I would argue that your best revenge against someone you suspect of sand bagging is to up your game, get faster, beat them or move up yourself to the next CAT.
 
If you're mad because you're not winning, you might want to take a look at your own motivations for racing and try and keep them in perspective. You can't control their actions,
only your own actions and how you choose to respond to others.
 
Okay.. that's enough Rainbows and Unicorns from me! egads... this was STILL a long winded and boring post, wasn't it?
 
 
What's inside the bass wants out...

 

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