Hoosier Mountain Bike Association

HMBA Trail Information => Fort Harrison State Park => Topic started by: Paul_Arlinghaus on April 06, 2012, 09:22:04 AM

Title: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: Paul_Arlinghaus on April 06, 2012, 09:22:04 AM
I have run into two rider this week who were connecting the beginner trail to Schoen with out going on the road.  They were using the gravel (hiking only) trail opposite the parking lot below the hill. 

It is very important that this doesn't happen. 

There are three main reasons for this.

3. There are sections of new trail out there that are not complete.  Riding on them will cause damage that our trail workers will have to fix.
2. Those who oppose mountain biking will point to mountain bikers on hiking trails (even if you are walking your bike) and use it to say mountain bikers don't follow the rules.
1. There is a section of mtb trail that crosses a section of horse trail that is currently used by the stables.  Any Mountain bikers in this area would be detrimental to our efforts.

Currently there are only 2 trails open to mountain bikes, Schoen and Camp Glen.  The is a segment of the next loop that is not officially opened, but that is ok to ride as an out and back.  If you ride it, you must turn around at the spot where the trail crosses a large gravel path, and you can see a large bridge to your left on the gravel path.  Just after this section, there are trees still across the trail.  At this point you can see more mtb trail across the ravine.  DO NOT continue and ride that trail.  It leads to the horse trails.

Experienced riders, please be very careful giving fellow mountain bikers directions.  You must reinforce the need to only ride trails opened to mountain bikes.

All riders must obey any not bike signs.

If you see riders where they shouldn't be, speak up and let them know where they can and can't ride.

Thanks,

Paul
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: TonyO on April 06, 2012, 10:55:41 AM
In recent conversations with other trail users, many seem unaware of this forum and the valuable up to date information it provides.  Perhaps marketing through front gate, trailhead or on-trail signage would provide more opportunities for users to become familiar with this great resource.  The park rangers who collect the fees may also be a great resource to let those with mountain bikes know the status of Ft. B trails and or communicate where to find daily information here.
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: deanarammalamma on April 06, 2012, 11:16:45 AM
I cross posted this all over the HMBA and Fort Harrison facebook pages as well
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: David Kuehnen on April 06, 2012, 11:28:28 AM
Can HMBA not get a link posted on the DNR State park sites?  I noticed that the "Hoosier Trail rides" company has their link on the Fort Ben portion of the DNR website and they area For Profit (or at least they are charging money).  I don'rt see how it could hurt HMBA to have this site linked on the states website to help educate people about mountain biking as well as HMBA.
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: Jeff Blum on April 06, 2012, 11:35:44 AM
on-trail signage

This is the big key.  If we officially want to stop people at that point of the trail, there needs to be a big sign there blocking the way.

And not to derail this thread or anything, but signage is still a weak point for us at Fort Harrison.  The interim sign that Paul made were OK for a while, but most of them have faded and/or fallen.  We need to get official permanent signage and trail markers installed on those trails.
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: Paul_Arlinghaus on April 06, 2012, 01:01:49 PM
While signage is important, and yes, many folks don't follow HMBA, it is important for HMBA members to step up and help ensure those riding at Fort Harrison understand where they can and can't ride.  Ask folk if they know where to ride.  If you see someone who may be riding off the official trails, stop and talk to them.

Signs, websites, etc only go so far. It is the personal interactions that are important.

And please do not encourage people to ride the new intermediate loop. It is not finished.  It is not open.

Paul
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: Steve King on April 06, 2012, 01:59:31 PM
Can HMBA not get a link posted on the DNR State park sites?  I noticed that the "Hoosier Trail rides" company has their link on the Fort Ben portion of the DNR website and they area For Profit (or at least they are charging money).  I don'rt see how it could hurt HMBA to have this site linked on the states website to help educate people about mountain biking as well as HMBA.
The DNR website for Brown County does have Mountain Biking links (which also leads to the HMBA link) under "Activities."  Perhaps we could have something similiar added for the Fort Harrision section of the DNR website.
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: gt ss on April 06, 2012, 05:50:32 PM
I have been beyond that bridge because it wasn't marked not to travel beyond. We went to the end of the obvious cut trail and turned around.

I will turn around at the bridge if I go that way again :)

Oh, and I was one of the riders that walked my bike out of the woods on Lawrence Creek. Sorry.
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: Paul_Arlinghaus on April 07, 2012, 08:11:22 AM
There are now signs at the turn around point.  Over the course of the year, there will be lots of changes.  Please stop and take the time to read signs. 

The best way to be in the know is to come out to trail work sessions.  There is still time to join today's work session!
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: David Kuehnen on May 29, 2012, 02:41:54 PM
Do NOT use the Lawrence Creek Trail Head to  access any of the Mountain Bike trails.  Riding on the Lawrence Creek or any other gravel trail endangers mountain biking at Fort Ben. 


SO DON'T DO IT.


If you see someone else doing it, tell them to stop.


There are only two access points to the mountain bike trails, the Schoen Creek trail head and the Camp Glen trail head.  See the map [size=78%]http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF&msa=0&msid=215785101859280476170.0004a89e7d97990c28231 (http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF&msa=0&msid=215785101859280476170.0004a89e7d97990c28231)[/size] for these locations.
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: Indiana Dave on May 30, 2012, 02:26:47 PM
Huff caught me Saturday being a horrible roll model and setting a bad example entering the new trail from the trail head at the bottom of the big hill... I apologize, and won't ever do it again.
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: ScottC on June 28, 2012, 09:01:19 PM
I just made it to Ft. Harrison for the first time on Sunday, but as a runner.  Could someone clarify for me where all of the acceptable access points to the trails are when riding my bike?  Thanks.
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: David Kuehnen on June 28, 2012, 09:13:11 PM
Check out the map on this forum for trailhead locations 
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: gt ss on June 28, 2012, 09:24:07 PM
along this topic, about two weeks ago, the wife of one of our fellow forum users was "verbally assaulted" while hiking with her two under 10yr old boys on the gravel LCT. He was demanding that hikers were not allowed on these trails and that she should leave. She then informed him that he was the one that was not allowed on this trail (as it was a 10' wide gravel road) and he needed to get his facts straight. She also said that he when he gets home and posts his story on the HMBA forum that she would find out, post the picture she took of where he assaulted her and let the forum users decide. He shut up and moved on.

I don't know who this was nor if he is a forum user, what I do know that there are many uninformed people out there stating their version of the truth and that we have ZERO control over them.

This is why when we come across folks of other user groups (and ours), we need to bend over backwards to be polite and friendly to make up for those that aren't. This goes especially for others that are already grumbly......
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: gt ss on June 28, 2012, 09:26:57 PM
Check out the map on this forum for trailhead locations

Is the trail leading down to the LCT parking lot not to be used?? It's not marked on the map as a trailhead.
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: jasonhilt on June 28, 2012, 09:53:31 PM
We can use the first 40 or 50 feet to get to the connecter trail.  That is all.  Above that is off limits. 
Where the loop crosses the hiking trail take a 180 to the right to get to the connecter.
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: Adim_x on June 28, 2012, 10:04:26 PM
I am a little confused, there is one section on the new trail that leads down towards the road that takes you up to the Schoen creek trail head.  I believe that is a parking area, and there is a spot by the parking where it looks like you can get on the Schoen trail.  Can we link both trails through this area?  Or must we ride from specific trail head to trail head?
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: jasonhilt on June 28, 2012, 10:22:11 PM
There is no connector from the Lawrence Creek parking lot to Schoen, not yet.  There is one in the works but it hasn't been mapped out yet.  You have to take the road up the hill and enter at the normal trail entrance for Schoen.
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: gt ss on June 28, 2012, 10:25:48 PM
We can use the first 40 or 50 feet to get to the connecter trail.  That is all.  Above that is off limits. 
Where the loop crosses the hiking trail take a 180 to the right to get to the connecter.

K, that's what I've been doing.

Admin x, there is no access to Schoen other than the trail head parking lot access that I'm aware of. There are some rogue trails HMBA has been trying to keep closed.
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: getsometrail on June 28, 2012, 10:49:46 PM
I was told about a month ago that bikes are not allowed to access the new trial from the Lawrence Creek parking lot, I was told to use the fire road or the Camp Glen trail.
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: Jeff Blum on June 29, 2012, 09:22:21 AM
I was told about a month ago that bikes are not allowed to access the new trial from the Lawrence Creek parking lot, I was told to use the fire road or the Camp Glen trail.

And shortly after that (seriously, like the next day) Alex built a connector from the NEW Lawrence Creek Trail that comes down and joins the OLD Lawrence Creek Trail about 30 feet from the road off the LC Trailhead.  We ARE allowed to ride that first 30 feet, and then turn left onto the new connector.
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: David Kuehnen on June 29, 2012, 10:33:15 AM
Check out the map on this forum for trailhead locations

Is the trail leading down to the LCT parking lot not to be used?? It's not marked on the map as a trailhead.
The map has been updated to include the connector at the old Lawrence Creek trail head.  As Jeff said, go up the gravel for 30 feet and then a left onto the connector.
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: Adim_x on June 29, 2012, 10:56:42 AM
That connector is the area I was talking about.  I was confused if we could use that, cross the road then parking area and then get on Schoen creek trail.  But it sounds like we can use that connector and go up the rode to the main Schoen trail head.  But it does take off a chunk of riding the road. 
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: Kirk Wheeler on August 02, 2012, 09:56:52 PM
Mountain Bikers, if you like to keep using the trails at Fort Harrison State Park you need to stay on the dedicated multi use trails. Stay off the sledding hill, and any bushwack entrances or exits. I am the President of the Friends of Fort Harrison State Park and I see the park staff at least once a month. I was informed tonight (after our meeting) that there has been many Mountain Bikers that have been observed by Conservation Officers entering the mountain bike trails from points other that the trail head. The naturalist has hiked the sledding hill and has reported mountain bike ruts down the center of the hill. Please stay on the mountain bike trails with your mountain bikes and off undesigated areas (ex. the sledding hill). Thank you!  ;)
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: Jaggard on August 02, 2012, 11:21:42 PM
Are we allowed to use the gravel "Millennium Grove" loop/trail to connect to Schoen Creek for a short/less technical loop? I haven't seen any comments about that in this forum.
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: john7722 on August 03, 2012, 05:59:59 AM
why not just do what we are being asked to do. let's not ruin a good thing here!!
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: jasonhilt on August 03, 2012, 08:25:37 AM
Quote
Are we allowed to use the gravel "Millennium Grove" loop/trail to connect to Schoen Creek for a short/less technical loop? I haven't seen any comments about that in this forum.

Short and simple response: no.

If it is NOT a designated mountain bike trail, paved path or paved road, do not ride your bike on it.  If you are unsure.  Don't ride it.  Then ask somebody, here or the park staff, if it is ok.
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: David Kuehnen on August 03, 2012, 09:44:27 AM
The approved Multi-use trails are shown on the attached map.


http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF&msa=0&msid=215785101859280476170.0004a89e7d97990c28231 (http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF&msa=0&msid=215785101859280476170.0004a89e7d97990c28231)


If a trail isn't on this map, then don't ride a mountain bike on it.


Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: Kirk Wheeler on August 03, 2012, 04:17:13 PM
Stay on the designated trails and use designated trail heads. Let us be the ones to be setting the example of following the rules. Beleive me the Conservation Officers if given the green light to write up violators by the park manager they will. Please follow the rules and help others understand the need and purpose. It took a long time to get where we are today lets keep it and grow forward. 8)  It will take everyone to make the wave of understanding! ;D (I just made that up!)
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: gt ss on August 03, 2012, 05:03:40 PM
I know where I'm permitted to ride and forum regulars know where they are permitted to ride. Dollars to donuts that casual riders have no clue nor care where they are permitted to ride. If a casual rider gets tired while riding LC and comes across the old LC trail, what tells them to stay off the old trail? Same goes for SC where you can see the road "down there". 

Are there any ways to prevent them from ruining our fun?
Is there a roadside sign stating all bikes are restricted to specific trails? There is one stating something about horses.
I know signs are often ignored but what else is there to do?
I also have seen kids riding the hiking trails around the campground @ VSP. Once someone sees this they assume it's ok' adding more bikes  :-\
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: john7722 on August 03, 2012, 05:45:53 PM
 I'm with SSRick,  If non forum readers use the park? How are they to know the rules & how are they to follow them
This is just a suggestion!!!!!
If the Park Attendant at the entrance see's bikes On or In your vehicle!! Make it very clear that the bikes are to be ridden/rode on Designated bike Trails/Paths ONLY!!! or risk being ticketed!!!!. This statement can be made as the person hands you your receipt or as you hand them the park Fee. Or a small pamphlet along with your receipt, clearly outlining the Bike Rules. Something this simple can go a long way in helping to educate non HMBA'er's
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: RDF73Charger on August 03, 2012, 08:10:58 PM
I think maybe when BCSP opened they gave out a MTB trail map and told you to stay on the MTB trails only.
The MTB trails are not on the Ft. Ben map they hand out yet.
The gate should tell people only to stay on the marked MTB trails.
A DNR volunteer told me he was picking up lots of reflector parts on the trails.
Most likely that means a lot of inexperienced users who have heard you can MTB in Ft. Ben but don't
know the rules. I bet it is people who just don't know yet.
I have not seen anyone not riding the marked MTB trails and would set them straight if I did.
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: Jaggard on August 03, 2012, 08:17:38 PM
Quote
Are we allowed to use the gravel "Millennium Grove" loop/trail to connect to Schoen Creek for a short/less technical loop? I haven't seen any comments about that in this forum.

Short and simple response: no.

If it is NOT a designated mountain bike trail, paved path or paved road, do not ride your bike on it.  If you are unsure.  Don't ride it.  Then ask somebody, here or the park staff, if it is ok.

Got it. Thanks! I am pretty new and had met some other riders that told me Schoen Creek was actually two loops and to do this for the less technical one.
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: Kirk Wheeler on August 03, 2012, 10:21:41 PM
Let's not throw the kitchen sink into this situation. My concern is Fort Harrison and the partnership we have with Fort Harrison State Park. Be a good Trail Steward and explain to those individuals that their behavior could result in loosing access for Mountain Bikes. It's a culture change! ;)
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: gt ss on August 07, 2012, 10:19:05 PM
WARNING mini rant to follow

Had a confused fellow trying to ride LCT today. He had ridden up the gravel trail to the crossing, saw us exiting via the connector and followed us down then proceeded to ride back up the gravel. I stopped him and informed him that he could be ticketed for riding there. He asked how he was supposed to get up there and I told him to used the connector, ride the loop CC and ride back down the connector when he was done.

He said "Well it's not marked very well". True. It is not marked at all. There is nothing to help direct you to go CC either. Sunday on our ride I directed a couple of ladies which direction to go at the top of the connector. From what I remember, all state parks I've hiked at have markers at every trail intersection telling you where you are and/or a directional arrow. Is LCT officially open or am I jumping the gun expecting directional help for those that don't know the trail. It seems like directional signs would have been installed before mileage markers. There is a sign @ the trailhead stating you may not hike on horse trails but it says nothing about riding a bike there or anywhere. Is there any permanent signage over @ SC indicating direction of travel.

If it's a problem of $ what do gate fees and tax dollars pay for? Do I need to buy a few 4x4s & yellow paint and fire up my router? If I do, let me know...

I don't mind helping other riders out but if them riding the wrong trails could loose US access, shouldn't we be concerned that the trails aren't marked or idiot proofed? (I realize idiot proofing is IMPOSSIBLE)

PS I HATE that he didn't remove his damn earbuds the whole time we were talking  >:( I know, how can you possible go 30min to an hour without your Iphone or music  :P
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: wabasso on August 08, 2012, 10:11:16 AM

Go ahead with your rant SS Ric.  I get frustrated at the exact same thing!  If there are no signs/no instructions from the gate - how can you expect someone to know & stay on the trails??   If you rely on other MTN bikers, guess what?  They are the exact ones that showed me how to short cut off of Schoen over to LCT.   


Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: tony on August 08, 2012, 10:22:17 AM
Here's a crazy idea.  Why don't you guys contact the main people heading up the trail building (hint: Mike Huffhand, Kirk Wheeler).  Talk to them about what signs are needed where, or better yet, go for a friendly ride with them, and have them show you where signs are needed and what should be on them. 
 
Then go to rockartsigns.com, order them up, (save your reciepts so HMBA can reimburse you), and install them.
 
Problem solved!
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: Kirk Wheeler on August 08, 2012, 12:10:35 PM
OK, Signage is something that is worked out between Paul Arlinghaus, Mike Huffhand and the Fort Harrison State Park manager. Be the best patient trail rep you can be with courtious and patience towards the new/other trail users. The Fort Harrison State Park management had a plan for LC trail reclaimmation and I am not sure if it is done or not yet started.  :D
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: gt ss on August 08, 2012, 05:22:05 PM
OK, Signage is something that is worked out between Paul Arlinghaus, Mike Huffhand and the Fort Harrison State Park manager. Be the best patient trail rep you can be with courtious and patience towards the new/other trail users. The Fort Harrison State Park management had a plan for LC trail reclaimmation and I am not sure if it is done or not yet started.  :D

As long as there is a plan, I can cope....

Tony, I feel like a little post here is just like contacting those fellas....see, it worked ;)
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: tony on August 08, 2012, 07:18:17 PM
A little communication goes a long way! :)
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: kabobulate on August 12, 2012, 10:04:26 PM
On the other side of this conversation, I often have to slow down and shout "behind you!" to people walking on the MBT's.  Should I be telling them to walk elsewhere or is it ok for them to walk there?  Historically, it hasn't ever been a problem for me, but I almost ran into someone the other day on one of the faster sections of the LC trail.
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: David Kuehnen on August 12, 2012, 10:14:38 PM
On the other side of this conversation, I often have to slow down and shout "behind you!" to people walking on the MBT's.  Should I be telling them to walk elsewhere or is it ok for them to walk there?  Historically, it hasn't ever been a problem for me, but I almost ran into someone the other day on one of the faster sections of the LC trail.


Schoen Creek, Camp Glen and the new intermediate trail are all MULTI-USE trails.  That said, mountain bikers ALWAYS YIELD to hikers and runners.   
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: Jeff Blum on August 13, 2012, 09:09:39 AM
On the other side of this conversation, I often have to slow down and shout "behind you!" to people walking on the MBT's.  Should I be telling them to walk elsewhere or is it ok for them to walk there?  Historically, it hasn't ever been a problem for me, but I almost ran into someone the other day on one of the faster sections of the LC trail.


Schoen Creek, Camp Glen and the new intermediate trail are all MULTI-USE trails.  That said, mountain bikers ALWAYS YIELD to hikers and runners.

(http://www.rockartsigns.com/rockartstore55/agora.cgi?picserve=10-733_lg.gif)

Please be a good ambassador for the sport of mountain biking.  That means sometimes having to slow down and/or stop for pedestrian traffic.  And if they DO move out of the way so that you can pass, please be gracious and at least say Thanks as you go past.  Like Dave said, these are multi-use trails, not our own personal playground.
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: Kirk Wheeler on August 13, 2012, 01:17:59 PM
Thank Jeff very good reminder! 8)
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: Jaggard on August 30, 2012, 12:53:46 AM
Not sure what was going on tonight, but there were a few dozen road cycles riding in the big field near the main playground and a few stragglers riding up and down the sledding hill. Heard one guy mention they were given permission to practice there. Just saying this because the "tracks" on the sledding hill may not be due to irresponsible mountain bikers, FYI.
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: Bigdaddy on August 30, 2012, 01:53:25 AM
Not road cycles, but cyclocross bikes brah.
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: Froderic on August 30, 2012, 05:41:41 AM
Not road cycles, but cyclocross bikes brah.

They do have permission from the park. its a weekly Cyclocross practice put on by the Scott Bond of the Speed way Wheelmen.  Out there every Wed starting at 6:00 I think.
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: Kirk Wheeler on August 30, 2012, 06:44:00 AM
Not sure what was going on tonight, but there were a few dozen road cycles riding in the big field near the main playground and a few stragglers riding up and down the sledding hill. Heard one guy mention they were given permission to practice there. Just saying this because the "tracks" on the sledding hill may not be due to irresponsible mountain bikers, FYI.
I will be meeing with the Park Manager next week, I will ask about the cycle cross training in the grassy areas and the hill. Common sense will tell you that if you ride repeatedly in the same line you will kill the grass then create a path or rut that can cause erosion. This line up and down hills will then cause fall line erosion when the rains come like this weekend. On the flat areas your bike tracks will collect water and make a mess. Just because you have permission does not mean you have a license to destroy the property. So be a good steward of the land!
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: gt ss on August 30, 2012, 06:27:51 PM
Not sure what was going on tonight, but there were a few dozen road cycles riding in the big field near the main playground and a few stragglers riding up and down the sledding hill. Heard one guy mention they were given permission to practice there. Just saying this because the "tracks" on the sledding hill may not be due to irresponsible mountain bikers, FYI.
I will be meeing with the Park Manager next week, I will ask about the cycle cross training in the grassy areas and the hill. Common sense will tell you that if you ride repeatedly in the same line you will kill the grass then create a path or rut that can cause erosion. This line up and down hills will then cause fall line erosion when the rains come like this weekend. On the flat areas your bike tracks will collect water and make a mess. Just because you have permission does not mean you have a license to destroy the property. So be a good steward of the land!

Excellent point. Last year I "raced" 7 CX races and in some cases the course was trashed by the time the first race was over. I wondered the same thing when I saw them practicing yesterday  ???
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: Sh3lby on August 30, 2012, 09:03:28 PM
I have always wondered what the "trail" up the sledding hill was. I checked it out (sent my kids up it) it goes nowhere. It ends at the very top.
Saturday mornings there is a boot camp style workout class, that runs up the hill single file.
It seems like lots of different groups using the same line, up a very wide hill.
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: JimboF on August 30, 2012, 10:13:23 PM
By the way, cross practice is once a week for 6-8 weeks so any damage is completely reversed. The races that have been held there the last two years show absolutely no signs of damage. The first year was around the same area and hill where they practice (snow race) and last year up near advanced trail (wet /mud race). We respect the places we practice and race as much as the mtn bike people. We are just as much stewards. I have seen Brown County trails littered with gel wrappers.
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: Loretta on August 30, 2012, 10:49:08 PM
Cross courses heal pretty quickly post race so it is hardly an issue.  If it was the park wouldn't allow weekly practice or have the race back this year. 

But for what it is worth, I have strongly requested all of the Shamrock racers to not participate in the Wednesday practice at Ft. Ben until there is a clear determination that everyone at the park is comfortable with it.  I am pretty sure that Scott Bond et al have gotten approval and the whole affair is green lighted but until I confirm that I want my racers to stay on the sidelines.
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: TonyO on August 31, 2012, 09:21:11 AM
I would like to grant you all my official permission to ride your cx bikes on Camp Glen Camp, New Lawrence Creek and Schoen.
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: Bob Cochrane on August 31, 2012, 12:23:42 PM
For anyone that has NOT been to Ft. Ben for cross practice, it is harmless.  Similar to a Dino pre-race warm-up in the grassy areas around the parking lot- just more people.  Each week, we can't tell that we were there the prior week.   


As stated above, it is once a week for a handful of weeks.   The majority of all practice is simply in the grass field that surrounds the parking lot.  After a few weeks, practice moves to the grass field around the velodrome.  No harm, No Foul.


Just as with the Dino series, race day venues take a bit of a pounding, but even those venues bounce back very quickly.


Come and check it out. I raced CX last year and l enjoyed it so much that I bought a mountain bike and raced with you guys this year.  Both are a blast.
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: Dave G. on August 31, 2012, 04:32:23 PM
I would like to grant you all my official permission to ride your cx bikes on Camp Glen Camp, New Lawrence Creek and Schoen.

I've done a loop on Camp Glenn Trail with my road bike, it was fun and different.  Didn't go very fast, just being a tourist.
 
Dave
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: gt ss on September 01, 2012, 06:28:00 PM
I don't think the issue is actual damage. The issue is the perception that the ordinary non-cyclist park goer has when they see bikes riding off road where they are "not allowed". Ordinary folks don't know the difference between a MTB, CX, road bike, hybrid, etc....What they do might probably know is that bikes are allowed on three trails and the pavement, THAT'S IT!

I don't doubt that CX race courses bounce back quickly because they get used once and then typically have a year to fully recover. However, the minds of those ordinary folks that HATE bikes anywhere, let alone on OUR trails, don't bounce back so quickly. Many would love to see the bikes banned from anything but/including the pavement in the park because they are an all around nuisance.

I'm all for CX training somewhere and don't doubt that they have approval because they had approval last year. I just hope it doesn't negatively affect other cycling in the park. Not that it will but "haters gonna hate".
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: brundlefly on September 02, 2012, 09:07:51 PM
[font=]Where to even begin the way this thread has taken a ridiculous turn against cx practice at Ft. Ben. First SS Ric, in fact, everyone of the negative posts before your last one comments on how the land will recover with people riding in the grass.  [/font]I was lucky enough to make it to two of the practices and from one week to next there was no sign of our previous week.  As for perception….who cares, if permission has been granted then oh well. Right now from this thread the perception is that we as cyclist are not unified in our stand to access.  The fact is that riders whether mtn., road, cross, or hybrid are by far in the minority and here we are having some wanting to go and run and tattle tell on others, how juvenile can we be?  I hear all these comments of these bold internet statements but has anyone stopped and talked to the ones running the practice to find out what the deal was?! I think before anyone jumps to conclusions they need to talk to the source.  And if you are commenting are you following all the rules? (Permission for practice at other parks? Beer at state parks? Etc) As cyclists we need to stand together not act like republicans and democrats.
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: gt ss on September 02, 2012, 09:48:55 PM
[font=]Where to even begin the way this thread has taken a ridiculous turn against cx practice at Ft. Ben. First SS Ric, in fact, everyone of the negative posts before your last one comments on how the land will recover with people riding in the grass.  [/font]I was lucky enough to make it to two of the practices and from one week to next there was no sign of our previous week.  As for perception….who cares, if permission has been granted then oh well. Right now from this thread the perception is that we as cyclist are not unified in our stand to access.  The fact is that riders whether mtn., road, cross, or hybrid are by far in the minority and here we are having some wanting to go and run and tattle tell on others, how juvenile can we be?  I hear all these comments of these bold internet statements but has anyone stopped and talked to the ones running the practice to find out what the deal was?! I think before anyone jumps to conclusions they need to talk to the source.  And if you are commenting are you following all the rules? (Permission for practice at other parks? Beer at state parks? Etc) As cyclists we need to stand together not act like republicans and democrats.

If you're asking if I have stopped to find out what the deal was, the answer is no. I know the deal. The same deal happened last year and maybe before. As far as rules; What practice at what other parks? There is nothing indicating the prohibition of alcohol on the pamphlet handed to each guest at the gate and besides that, I don't drink beer ??? I ride only on approved trails in the allowed direction. Etc...

Who cares about perception? I do. It's not against CX practice, it's against bikes in perceived "off limits" areas as seen by ordinary park visitors. Before CXP began this was posted
"Mountain Bikers, if you like to keep using the trails at Fort Harrison State Park you need to stay on the dedicated multi use trails. Stay off the sledding hill, and any bushwack entrances or exits. I am the President of the Friends of Fort Harrison State Park and I see the park staff at least once a month. I was informed tonight (after our meeting) that there has been many Mountain Bikers that have been observed by Conservation Officers entering the mountain bike trails from points other that the trail head. The naturalist has hiked the sledding hill and has reported mountain bike ruts down the center of the hill. Please stay on the mountain bike trails with your mountain bikes and off undesigated areas (ex. the sledding hill). Thank you!  ;)
« Last Edit: August 03, 2012, 10:12:57 PM by Kirk Wheeler »"
So you can see, this fight has been going on for a while. Perhaps you should go back and read the entire thread...

I don't see where anyone is tattling on anyone else or throwing bold statements around. If they seem bold, they may be sarcastic and sarcasm doesn't come across online.

See you at the CX races. I'll be one of the guys either at the tail end of the lead lap or front of the lapped riders in cat4 45+ :)

facts?



Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: brundlefly on September 03, 2012, 09:11:41 AM
I did read the entire post that is why I still think it is off the original thread.  I do agree that signage would help notify where bikers could be allowed.  That would eliminate confusion.  I totally understand the land issues of trying to get the rights to build trails there and to continue a good relationship.  Riders when in the woods should stay on the trails agreed.  The thing I think is funny is that we are talking about a group riding out in the open (DNR drives by along with park officials) on a grass field 6 to 8 times for the YEAR. With an approved cx race coming soon.  Also, a group that has permission, it is hard to not have a better relationship with clear communication like that.  Totally agree there should be no bushwhacking through the woods and not doing practice on the sled hill. I totally get all that.
My whole thing about throwing out comments is make sure someone has the facts and can look at themselves and know they are doing the right thing.  I for one cannot call out others because in my life I have done my share of off limit riding.  And I would just hope that someone is not creating waves for others that have gained access.  I for one would be totally against cx riders complaing about mtn bikers at the Fort, also.  I would not want ANYONE to loose cycling access.
I look forward to seeing you out there.  Seems like we are in the same age wave. 
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: gt ss on September 03, 2012, 05:05:24 PM
I look forward to seeing you out there.  Seems like we are in the same age wave.

be sure to say hi when you go by  :D
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: Kirk Wheeler on September 07, 2012, 11:13:46 AM
Here is what I have found out from the Fort Harrison State Park Manager. Cyclo Cross event/organization is charged a fee for repairing the grass after the event (Sept 30, 2012 in the case). Practice will be allowed one week prior to the event (Sept 16, 2012) in the Shafter picnic area. So until September 16, 2012 please observe the Park Manager's directives and practice on the roads or single track trails with trail conditions are good. I hope this helps! ;)
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: Loretta on September 09, 2012, 07:10:00 PM
I can assure you there will be no practice on the 16th.  There is a race that day.

The practice would be on the Wednesday before I would imagine. 

There is some conflicting info though.  There are many that have been told they have permission to practice on Wednesdays.

It seems to me that a whole lot of action and hand wringing and gnashing of teeth took place over the simple question of, "hey, what are those guys doing out there in that field?"

Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: Kirk Wheeler on September 09, 2012, 09:04:08 PM
My input in all this is only to provide information that I have been receiving through the Friends of Fort Harrisosn State Park . I want the best for everyone and to enjoy the outdoors. Each event organizer works with the Park Management and negotiate rules and boundaries. Have a great upcoming CX race! ;D
Title: Re: Important: Please stay on the MTB trails
Post by: Fett on September 09, 2012, 10:43:25 PM
Yeah.  Lets spend some more time on a mountain bike forum talking about riding road bikes around in someone's yard.