Hoosier Mountain Bike Association

The Den => Rants and Raves => Topic started by: jerrywr on December 05, 2015, 03:23:09 PM

Title: New mtb fee
Post by: jerrywr on December 05, 2015, 03:23:09 PM
After searching for awhile for an answer, maybe someone knows here.
Will this new mtb permit cover Hoosier national forest trails? It's not listed on dnr website.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: Raleighguy29 on December 05, 2015, 03:43:31 PM
No it's only for the single track trails in the parks. Hooseir national is covered by its own trail pass


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Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: gmcttr on December 05, 2015, 04:44:33 PM
Only good for State properties and not Federal properties.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: plapham on December 09, 2015, 09:49:34 AM
Pretty soon mountain bikes will need license plate holder to display all the required permits?   >:(
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: Fett on December 09, 2015, 10:16:16 AM
Pretty soon mountain bikes will need license plate holder to display all the required permits?   >:(
If you own a Ferrari, you forfeit your right to be outraged by a $20 permit.  ;D
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: Raleighguy29 on December 09, 2015, 12:09:29 PM

If you own a Ferrari, you forfeit your right to be outraged by a $20 permit.  ;D
. And if you ride as much as some of us do. You buy the $20 pass and it takes you a week to break even.


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Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: jerrywr on December 12, 2015, 01:08:53 PM
even at 50 bucks for a park pass im still ripping them off.  I just wish we could get 1 permit that would cover it all, instead of three. last year they said Indiana was it the top five states for obese people and instead of encouraging people to bike they decide to tax you. the road bikes will be next.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: Wall on December 12, 2015, 07:44:25 PM
That is not a bad idea...wheel tax for road bikes to help pay for the roads they ride on.  I think you are onto something!


Writing my representatives now.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: firefighter56 on December 28, 2015, 07:15:38 PM
I for one think this new fee is a crock of crap!  I am fully aware of all the reasons HMBA supports this fee so don't waste your time typing. 


I used to take my 2 sons mountain biking when we camped at BCSP and other places and they love it but I'll be damned if I pay an extra $60 per year or $15 a day just to ride the trails that volunteers built. 


HMBA volunteers worked their tails off begging to build the trails in the first place, then spent countless hours planning, prepping and building the trails just to be told now that we have to pay to ride them?  Looks to me like the HMBA would have had the end users in mind a little more when negotiating this fee.  Sure, if you are a single guy or a guy that is the only one in a family who rides its not a big deal but when you multiply that by 3 or 4 it becomes very cost prohibitive!  A pass that works like the park entry pass, all riders in the vehicle can ride, would have been a better way to do it, or a less expensive fee.  If these fees meant that the trails would be maintained daily by the park staff and they would hire people just to build and maintain the trails then the fees would be ok, but we all know that isn't the case.  They saw an opportunity to soak more money from people and jumped on the chance and we let them.  What extra facilities have they built for the mountain bikers?  What amenities do they offer because we are coming into the park or are now paying to ride?  None, nothing?  Huh, figures.


There are plenty of other places I can ride for free and those are the places I will be riding and volunteering my time from now on. 


I'm not usually one to complain about things but this is pure crap.  They already make more money on us for the entry fee's, apparently that just isn't enough.  And before anybody asks, yes I do volunteer a ton of time to different trails helping maintain them, just not State Parks because they aren't close enough for me to so that eliminates any possibility for me to get a pass.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: gmcttr on December 28, 2015, 09:10:43 PM
...None, nothing?...

During these times with cutbacks in state funding to the parks, they are keeping the gates open. There's that....and it's enough for me.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: Paul_Arlinghaus on December 28, 2015, 09:17:12 PM
Quote
[size=0px]Looks to me like the HMBA would have had the end users in mind a little more when negotiating this fee.[/size]


Please understand that although HMBA met multiple times with the IDNR, I can not describe the meetings as negotiations.  The terms of the Permit where dictated to us, and the few, very modest changes where only made after legislators where contacted through the Action Alert.


I am working on a formal comment from HMBA on the Permit and will post once I get approval from the HMBA board.


Paul
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: firefighter56 on December 28, 2015, 10:13:25 PM
Thanks for the reply guys, my original post pointed the finger at HMBA more than I intended it to and before Paul's post I thought HMBA had an opportunity to at least give an opinion on the subject to the DNR.  I know how much work and dedication HMBA and its members have put into the trails and that is a big part of what has me so steamed.  If the parks had built the trails themselves, like they did the rest of the park then I would have no problem paying the usage fees.


Another part of what has me so upset is that they not only jabbed us with this, they hammered us with every other fee in the park.


http://www.in.gov/dnr/parklake/files/sp-2015_fee_change_chart.pdf


This is the 2015 fee schedule, it shows what the fees were and what they went to in 2015.  I have also been told that the camping fees went up again for 2016 but haven't heard what they will be yet.


Using the 2015 schedule camping for Friday and Saturday night in my RV on a full hookup site at BCSP and riding the trails with my boys would cost me $117!  That is without the annual pass for entry or riding.  If I want to buy the annual pass it will cost me $50 entry and $60 for me and my 2 boys.  For me alone that is a $70 increase from the previous year just in the annual passes.  If I camped for only the 4 nights required to cover the cost of the riding passes it would be an $86 increase, however we camp at the State Parks many more nights than that.  These fees don't cover the new charge to shoot at their gun ranges either, which are $5 per day or $50 annual pass.  They have never charged for those before either, and they do less work to these than they do the trails, however they did build them to start so in my book it is more justifiable to charge for them.


Just a little more on me and how it effects me, we camp in a 40' fifthwheel, mountain bike, kayak, enjoy firearms, hike, and use the youth/primitive camping area with our Scout Troop.  This isn't just about the new bike fee, its about the whole package.  If it was merely a $20 annual pass increase for my mountain bike it wouldn't be a big deal at all, but when you figure it all in its a few hundred $$ a year that they increased for my family.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: Paul_Arlinghaus on December 28, 2015, 11:40:04 PM
This year has led me to believe that our State's leaders would like to see State Parks funded 100% by user fees.  There are several challenges to this.  One is that State Parks have things in their mission statement that are not recreation based.  So we are going to be asked to pay for 100% of the recreational costs, as well as the preservation of archaeological and environmental resources. 
I personally can afford to pay the increased costs (yes many costs are increased besides the new off-road permit).  But I have a good job and no kids. 


I lose sleep knowing that many Hoosiers (the ones who need the parks the most) are being priced out.  Our parks are turning into an elite country club. 
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: jasonhilt on December 29, 2015, 03:31:17 PM
Quote
I lose sleep knowing that many Hoosiers (the ones who need the parks the most) are being priced out.

Not only Hoosiers, but people from out of state that come to ride our trails are going to be cutting back, if not stopping all together.  I have read many comments from people on other sites that say the new fees will make them stay in their own state or go to another state to ride.
As little money they will get off the new fee, compared to the budget shortfall, they would have been better to just raise the gate fee more.


Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: PKemppainen on December 29, 2015, 05:22:26 PM
Yep. For an estimated $50,000 in annual revenue, it's a pretty narrow-minded decision, not taking into consideration potential tourism dollars from out of state visitors.


But with politicians cutting over $110,000,000 out of the DNR budget since 2008, they have to find revenue somewhere.

While we've all been told cutting taxes is going to have a huge benefit for everyone, we're all seeing the actual effect it has.








Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: bruce180vf on December 30, 2015, 11:44:42 AM
Years ago the INDR came to the Indiana Bass Fishing folks and said "hey we see how much money you are taking in and paying back out and we want to take our fair share out of it. " They tried to take a percentage of overall funds that were collected and also charge a $400 per tournament fee for any fishing tournaments over 25 boats. When it was all said and done they got there fair share but they enacted a lake user fee tag for everyone that uses a DNR controlled lake. $20 a year.
The leaders of the fishing organizations pointed out that all of the pleasure boaters and the boats moored all over the state never payed to use the lakes. They counted the boats and found out that tournaments would generate about $100,000 dollars and year but all of the lake users were in the 7 figures. The DNR is quick to try and dictate what users will have to pay. I am sure the people that showed up at the meetings did everything they could to curtail the fee.
Thanks Paul for your efforts
Maybe there is another way the DNR can raise money besides targeting specific users like they do. Here is where a good idea can save everyone money. We just haven't found it yet.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: RIC0 on December 30, 2015, 03:06:35 PM
Wheres a list showing every trail in the state that requires a pass???  Pretty sure this is the million dollar question.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: tomc on December 30, 2015, 03:39:40 PM
If it's run by Indiana DNR then you'll need a pass. Pretty much State parks and Forests. But venture into Hoosier National and you'll need a completely different pass. Yea!


I'd much rather just see them raise entrance fees to help cover their costs, ... but oh yeah, they did that too didn't they? I'm with some of the other folks here. If some of this was being put back into the very things they are charging for then I could at least understand it better. But they want the cake and eat it too. They will charge for use of the trails (but only for mountain bikers) but expect volunteers do all the work to maintain and repair. But goody goody, if you spend a mere 125 hours working on trails they will cover the $20 for the next years pass. 125 HOURS!


 Does anyone know of another state that has adopted this pay to play fee schedule? I can certainly see how this might just come back to bite them in the ass by actually reducing the amount of entrance fees for out-of-state bikers who just pass on coming here. Wonder if there is anyway to demonstrate the potential reduction in revenue because of this over the next year?   



[size=78%]  [/size]
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: RIC0 on December 30, 2015, 03:41:40 PM
Finally found some info...  I dont agree with it but will pay the $20 an ride.


WHAT PROPERTIES HAVE MOUNTAIN BIKE TRAILS? [/font][/color][/font][/color][/size]
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: bruce180vf on December 30, 2015, 06:51:20 PM
If you look at our neighboring states mountain bike forums there are already people stating they will not come to ride in Indiana anymore. It will be an impact on the locals for sure all over the state.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: plapham on December 31, 2015, 09:21:27 AM
Someone needs to look at the DNR and figure out why they can't operate within a budget (typical of govt but not the people).  Unfortunately this oversight does not exist? And yes Fett, I can afford and will pay the fee  ;)
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: firefighter56 on December 31, 2015, 10:03:01 AM
I wonder if they would get the message if HMBA told them that they would have to maintain and build their own trails or pay the HMBA for their efforts in the park?  If they are telling us that nothing is free then we should tell them the same, especially since they are making money from the HMBA efforts.  I do understand the fragile situation that HMBA is in since it stands to lose a large amount of money if the DNR says no more access for the Brown County Epic, which brings up my next point.


There has to be other areas outside State Parks available for building trails.  I do understand that it is a long term solution but to keep mountain biking alive and growing in Indiana I think we should be looking for other options.  If the HMBA builds other trails then there should be a binding contract at the start stating either the trails are open to the public for no charge or a fee schedule is set that both parties can agree on so that this doesn't happen again in the future.  I would think that any municipality would be interested in doing something similar to what Anderson has done with Rangeline Nature Preserve.  It wouldn't have to be as elaborate as Rangeline is as far as all of the man made features, it could be as simple as most other trails are with only bridges in select areas.  I say simple as a relative term, I know there is nothing simple about building a trail.  Fishers has a nice little area to play but that area is pretty limited since there is no real mileage to the trail and no more area to add mileage, it is billed as more of a mountain bike park instead of a trail.  Indy has a couple of very nice trails with Town Run and Southwest Way.  Westwood is nice but again charges a fee to ride, but they do at least offer some trail maintenance and the fees are half of what the DNR is charging.


One more thing that just adds fuel to this fire is that Indianapolis Public Library has bought several State Park entrance passes and those passes can be checked out to allow free access to anyone who has a library card.  The article didn't mention any mountain bike passes being available though. 


For me its not a matter of whether or not I can afford the fees.  I too have been blessed with an excellent job and my wife makes more money than I do so the money is not the entire issue.  It is all of the fees combined along with the fact that the DNR got something for free and now want to charge the very people who gave them the gift to use it.  This is morally wrong, but who in government has morals anyway.  I will be going other places to ride, kayak, camp and spend my time and money.  The DNR has lost the several hundred dollars annually that I used to spend there by trying to soak even more money from me.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: davebik on December 31, 2015, 10:39:07 AM
anyone know how this mtb pass is going to be checked?  will they check it at the gate if you have a bike on your car, and will they ask for everyone in the vehicle to show a pass?

sorry if this info was posted somewhere and I missed it.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: RIC0 on December 31, 2015, 10:52:48 AM
anyone know how this mtb pass is going to be checked?  will they check it at the gate if you have a bike on your car, and will they ask for everyone in the vehicle to show a pass?

sorry if this info was posted somewhere and I missed it.

Good question, sometimes I ride with a camelback sometimes water bottle only.  I'm sure I'll forget my pass more than have it.  I don't see this getting heavily enforced and it's shame greed has to do this to the biking community.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: firefighter56 on December 31, 2015, 11:05:50 AM
They are supposed to check at the gate and they will be spot checking on the trails.  I would assume if a DNR employee sees you on the trail he can ask to see your pass.  If you are planning to ride the trails you should keep it with you to avoid even further fines for riding the trails. 
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: gmcttr on December 31, 2015, 11:09:46 AM
Checking for a pass at the gate will do no good....'I'm just going to ride on the roads', so checking at trailheads and on trail are the only possibilities and will have to happen very rarely or the costs will be more than the fee income. As I've previously stated, only the honest riders will pay the fee, disproportionately effecting HMBA/IMBA members.

I'd be pleasantly surprised if the gate attendants even inform those coming in with bikes that a permit is required.

I'm wondering what the "penalty" for being caught off road without a permit will be. I'm assuming a "slap on the wrist" is all....so little income will be gained from the uncaring masses. 
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: bruce180vf on December 31, 2015, 03:15:04 PM
I asked the gentleman at the gate and he said that Conservation officers will be policing the trail passes. Even at $20 a pass it is still cheaper than a round of golf so I will gladly pay it if that is what it takes to keep the parks open. If I was traveling a great distance and were only able to ride there once or twice a year it may make a difference. To many I am afraid it will.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: Kirk Hilton on December 31, 2015, 06:37:12 PM
I personally can afford to pay the increased costs (yes many costs are increased besides the new off-road permit).  But I have a good job and no kids. 

Interesting comment by our HMBA president. 

My comments are censored because certain people do not like my opinion of the way the organization or government rams it up our axxxx. 

The revolution is starting.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: Unfit Nitwit on December 31, 2015, 07:13:31 PM
I'm wondering what the "penalty" for being caught off road without a permit will be. I'm assuming a "slap on the wrist" is all....so little income will be gained from the uncaring masses.

On a rail trail in Wisconsin the conservation officer would offer to sell you a pass, if you declined you were ticketed.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: firefighter56 on December 31, 2015, 10:31:18 PM
I won't buy a pass nor will I be fined.  I simply won't ride in the state parks.  Additionally, I will camp in other campgrounds, kayak in other waters and shoot at other ranges.  I will continue to volunteer my time at the trails that are close to me and I enjoy riding.  I just won't be making my several trips a year to BCSP and I'll ride Rangeline, Town Run and Westwood instead of Ft. Ben.  Why take a chance on getting a ticket by breaking the rules when you could avoid the situation all together by either buying a pass or riding somewhere else.  That makes as much sense as charging only mountain bikers for using a multi-use trail.


Keep in mind that if this works anything like violating hunting, fishing, boating and all the other laws that apply to being enforced by Conservation Officers, they can confiscate your equipment.  In other words, they can take your bike in addition to giving you a fine.  I'm pretty sure they wouldn't unless you gave them a really good reason to make your life suck but they could.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: Allen Edwards on December 31, 2015, 11:44:51 PM
I don't like the idea of another annual trail pass that I have to buy and carry with me at all times, but I understand why and how it came about.  I just hope that all of us who are griping here on the forum are also contacting our state legislators about the issue because they are the only ones who can do anything about it.

They are the ones who dangled the shiny beads of tax caps and tax cuts in front of us.  And we all cheered and voted for them.  And they are the ones who voted to cut the budget for IDNR.

I don't see how we have any grounds to criticize IDNR for trying to find ways to make up the revenue that was taken away from them by the state legislature.  IDNR doesn't control the purse strings but they are expected to provide certain levels of service.

We can't have it both ways.  Either we're willing to pay our fair share of taxes or we pay to play.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: duppyC on January 12, 2016, 11:41:45 AM
I just won't be making my several trips a year to BCSP and I'll ride Rangeline, Town Run and Westwood instead of Ft. Ben.  Why take a chance on getting a ticket by breaking the rules when you could avoid the situation all together by either buying a pass or riding somewhere else.


My answer to your "why" is that the other places you mention, while fun in their own right, don't hold a candle to BCSP, Versailles or Yellowwood. I'd hate to be stuck riding non-DNR properties just to save $20.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: firefighter56 on January 12, 2016, 11:54:13 AM
My problem is that it's not only $20.  I have 2 boys that ride too.  Plus all of their other new fees and rate hikes.  I figured out that if I only used a DNR property exactly the same as I did last year it would cost me an additional $425. 

And as I stated previously, why take the chance on getting caught and getting a fine.  You should either buy a pass or not ride the trails.  I'm not saying that nobody should go ride them, just if you do then you should buy the pass.

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Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: Steve Smith on January 23, 2016, 04:06:10 PM
I didn't know anything about the new mtb fee until today when I went to the park. I got my $50.00 annual pass at the gate as usual and then the guy ask me if I also needed the annual $20.00 bike pass (that you must carry on you at all times while riding or you will get a ticket if the CO's stop you). I honestly thought the guy was confused so I went to the park office. The lady there told me what I heard was correct and that the park has had a lot of complaints about the extra fee. I told her I wasn't really complaining, but I would like to know where my money is going. According to her it's going to HMBA for trail maintenance.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: jasonhilt on January 23, 2016, 04:36:56 PM
Quote
According to her it's going to HMBA for trail maintenance.

She flat out lied to you.  Not a single PENNY goes to HMBA.  It all goes into the general fund.  That's the biggest problem we all have with the fee.  We don't see any of it.  I wouldn't have an issue if some of it went to HMBA.

Everyone, keep voicing your negative opinions of the fee.  Let the parks and your representatives know that the fee is unfair.  HMBA does the maintenance on the trails, unlike the horse trails where the parks take care of most, if not all of it.  Not to mention road bikes don't have to pay a fee to use the roads so why should mountain bikers have to pay to use the trails WE built?

ok...end of rant.

Went to Fort Ben today.  Not one word from the attendant about having a bike pass.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: Steve Smith on January 23, 2016, 04:58:34 PM
She flat out lied to you.  Not a single PENNY goes to HMBA.  It all goes into the general fund.  That's the biggest problem we all have with the fee.  We don't see any of it.  I wouldn't have an issue if some of it went to HMBA.

Everyone, keep voicing your negative opinions of the fee.  Let the parks and your representatives know that the fee is unfair.  HMBA does the maintenance on the trails, unlike the horse trails where the parks take care of most, if not all of it.  Not to mention road bikes don't have to pay a fee to use the roads so why should mountain bikers have to pay to use the trails WE built?

ok...end of rant.

Went to Fort Ben today.  Not one word from the attendant about having a bike pass.


Well said Jason. I have also been told by park employees that mountain bikers generate no revenue for the park.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: Kirk Hilton on January 25, 2016, 09:44:35 AM
How would you feel if you drove 2 or 3 hours from out of state to a state park to be hit with a $27 dollar entrance fee?
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: jasonhilt on January 25, 2016, 09:56:53 AM
Out of state is $9 for entrance fee.  Each bike is $5.  So one person would be $14.  Four people would be $29.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: gmcttr on January 25, 2016, 10:16:55 AM

Well said Jason. I have also been told by park employees that mountain bikers generate no revenue for the park.

Worse than that, I've been told we are an expense due to the cost of extracting injured riders.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: Fett on January 25, 2016, 10:21:18 AM
She flat out lied to you.  Not a single PENNY goes to HMBA.  It all goes into the general fund.  That's the biggest problem we all have with the fee.  We don't see any of it.  I wouldn't have an issue if some of it went to HMBA.

Everyone, keep voicing your negative opinions of the fee.  Let the parks and your representatives know that the fee is unfair.  HMBA does the maintenance on the trails, unlike the horse trails where the parks take care of most, if not all of it.  Not to mention road bikes don't have to pay a fee to use the roads so why should mountain bikers have to pay to use the trails WE built?

ok...end of rant.

Went to Fort Ben today.  Not one word from the attendant about having a bike pass.

I doubt that the park office person lied about it. She is probably just repeating what is being told to them.  I have corrected a gate attendant already, very politely, and they were genuinely surprised that the money was not going back to the trails and after learning that, was sympathetic to mtb'ers. I think we need to keep politely educating park personnel as to what is really going on because info does not seem to be correctly trickling down from above.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: djkouza on January 25, 2016, 11:37:26 AM
Worse than that, I've been told we are an expense due to the cost of extracting injured riders.


Is there not a fee for being extracted?  I would have thought so.  I know when doing motorcycle track days and racing many have insurance to cover an Ambulance/helo ride out.  (This was in West Virginia, so maybe IN laws don't make you pay your own costs?)   


I think if your doing something inherently dangerous such as MTB then you should eat the extraction costs for your injuries.  That said I'd rather pay $20/person/year than what I've heard most extraction costs are :)



Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: gmcttr on January 25, 2016, 02:49:34 PM
...Is there not a fee for being extracted?....

From the times I've been involved, other bikers have contacted the park office and they made the 911 call for ambulance service. Other mtbr's performed first aid (to control bleeding), directed the park personnel and their 4wd Gator to the closet fire road access and met the ambulance EMT's at the road and led them in. Then the mtbr's and EMT's worked together to get the injured rider to the Gator for a short ride out to the ambulance.

To my knowledge, the park doesn't have a charge and the injured party would be responsible for the ambulance charges. IDNR's cost would be minimal in this scenario.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: bikapelli1 on January 26, 2016, 11:13:51 PM

Is there not a fee for being extracted?  I would have thought so.  I know when doing motorcycle track days and racing many have insurance to cover an Ambulance/helo ride out.  (This was in West Virginia, so maybe IN laws don't make you pay your own costs?)   


I think if your doing something inherently dangerous such as MTB then you should eat the extraction costs for your injuries.  That said I'd rather pay $20/person/year than what I've heard most extraction costs are :)

Several years ago my partner had a bad accident on Aynes while riding alone, splitting open her knee and leaving her unable to ride or walk.  Fortunately, she was able to reach Alex by cell phone, who was working on Walnut that day.  He went to get the park rangers while another guy went to keep her company.  After a short while, they got her out with one of the Gators.  She was extremely apologetic and was hoping it didn't give a bad impression about mountain bikers.  The park ranger responded that this was nothing compared to what the horseback riders due to themselves.  Something about falling off of horses and compound fractures. 

So, it's all relative.  Yes, we may hurt ourselves but so can other park users. 
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: RIC0 on March 21, 2016, 03:09:20 PM
Anyone asked to show a pass yet???  I went to BC this weekend for the first time in 2016, showed my State park pass and was waved on thru.  I forgot about the bike pass until later in the day.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: jfleming10 on March 21, 2016, 03:35:02 PM
Same here, totally forgot about it and was never asked about it.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: matt_laker on March 21, 2016, 07:55:58 PM
I was at BCSP today and no one was even at the north gate entrance.  Maybe it isn't "prime time" yet so they don't staffs much during the week???  Got there at 8:30 and still no one there when I left at about noon.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: mtbikernate on March 21, 2016, 09:31:17 PM
I have not been asked, aside from the staffer at ft ben at the beginning of the year who saw my bike in the car and asked if I needed to purchase one (when I was buying my annual gate pass).
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: Unfit Nitwit on March 21, 2016, 10:59:39 PM
November until late March/ first of April there is a gate fee Fri-Sat-Sun. Passes and permits can be bought at the park office.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: Jeff Blum on March 23, 2016, 11:14:21 AM

Well said Jason. I have also been told by park employees that mountain bikers generate no revenue for the park.

We've always generated as much revenue as any other user group.  We pay our entry fees to get into the park.  If we want to camp, we pay for a campsite.  What other revenue streams do the parks have?  Oh yeah, a trail use pass that only applies to mountain bikers!  So yeah, the park employees are correct in a way:  Other than the new fee that has been forced upon us, we mountain bikers generate no more or less revenue than your average park user.

However, the trails that HMBA have built in the last 10+ years are a great attraction anywhere they've been built, and they draw more users to those parks by their very existence.  More users = more money, but then again, Mo Money = Mo Problems.

No one has ever said that MATH is one of the DNRs strengths.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: ryantrek on March 23, 2016, 02:20:40 PM
 I get what everyone is saying for sure, and certainly think many of you have made some great points in what you're saying. It stinks that we've got to be the group that has to pay to play so to speak. That being said, my family spends a LOT of time at the state parks in Indiana. This year alone has already taken us to 3 parks on numerous weekends. I love all of our state parks, and each one has its own little something that makes me really enjoy my time that I get to spend there. I hike, I ride, I camp, and just generally get away to a simple place to kick back and relax and not have a worry in my mind. If it costs me an extra 20 bucks a year to try to help keep these parks alive, I'm fine with that. It's fun tax. I've certainly had significantly more expensive hobbies.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: SpecialEd on March 23, 2016, 03:37:47 PM
I imagine this will not be enforced EVER. Think about it for a second. The point of the passes is to generate additional revenue. The cost of paying for DNR officers or park staff to check for passes would eliminate all of the revenue generated from the passes in a matter of DAYS. You will never have your pass checked, this is simply a cash grab and if you're feeling lucky, you don't need to buy one at all. I already bought my pass before realizing that there won't be any kind of enforcement.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: Fett on March 23, 2016, 03:44:12 PM
I imagine this will not be enforced EVER. Think about it for a second. The point of the passes is to generate additional revenue. The cost of paying for DNR officers or park staff to check for passes would eliminate all of the revenue generated from the passes in a matter of DAYS. You will never have your pass checked, this is simply a cash grab and if you're feeling lucky, you don't need to buy one at all. I already bought my pass before realizing that there won't be any kind of enforcement.

Probably not entirely correct.  They are already paying conservation officers, so it would probably be revenue positive for them to sporadically go out and write a few tickets to get the word out that they are checking to keep people buying passes. It is just a matter if you draw the short straw or not.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: RF on March 23, 2016, 04:59:59 PM
I was ask  to show mine at the west gate back in  January when the trails were frozen
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: Syt on March 24, 2016, 03:27:16 PM
I imagine this will not be enforced EVER. Think about it for a second. The point of the passes is to generate additional revenue. The cost of paying for DNR officers or park staff to check for passes would eliminate all of the revenue generated from the passes in a matter of DAYS. You will never have your pass checked, this is simply a cash grab and if you're feeling lucky, you don't need to buy one at all. I already bought my pass before realizing that there won't be any kind of enforcement.


  I had a lost rider yesterday evening (I know, I know. Also thanks Fett and E) and in asking people as they came off the trail if they had ran across him, one individual offered his number and to return with an atv should I not find the rider by dark. The person turned out to be a CO enjoying the evening with his mtb and his (I presume) SO. So even if off duty, authority has eyes (with teeth) out there.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: PKemppainen on March 24, 2016, 04:27:45 PM

  I had a lost rider yesterday evening (I know, I know. Also thanks Fett and E) and in asking people as they came off the trail if they had ran across him, one individual offered his number and to return with an atv should I not find the rider by dark. The person turned out to be a CO enjoying the evening with his mtb and his (I presume) SO. So even if off duty, authority has eyes (with teeth) out there.


At O'Bannon, there are two CO's who are avid mountain bikers. There's a pretty good chance you may encounter them on the trails, which is something to keep in mind if you decide to take your chances.


But if you come out and put in 20 hours of volunteer work over the course of the season, maybe you can get a free permit. Yeah, it's not exactly "free", but the trails will also benefit from the help. We've already had two trail maintenance events this season, and our group of volunteers have already had a chance to put in at least 14-15 hours.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: Syt on March 24, 2016, 05:22:02 PM

At O'Bannon, there are two CO's who are avid mountain bikers. There's a pretty good chance you may encounter them on the trails, which is something to keep in mind if you decide to take your chances.


But if you come out and put in 20 hours of volunteer work over the course of the season, maybe you can get a free permit. Yeah, it's not exactly "free", but the trails will also benefit from the help. We've already had two trail maintenance events this season, and our group of volunteers have already had a chance to put in at least 14-15 hours.

Good to know. I take it the horses are no longer an issue then.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: PKemppainen on March 24, 2016, 05:34:59 PM
Good to know. I take it the horses are no longer an issue then.


If they are caught on the trails when the CO's are riding, they will be written up.



Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: ELduder on March 28, 2016, 03:51:46 PM
Quote
[size=0px]At O'Bannon, there are two CO's who are avid mountain bikers. There's a pretty good chance you may encounter them on the trails, which is something to keep in mind if you decide to take your chances.[/size]


So we should carry the pass on us when riding?
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: SpecialEd on March 28, 2016, 04:16:10 PM
Yes,I believe you are supposed to have the permit on your person in the event you are approached by an officer on any trail rated more difficult than green.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: mtbikernate on April 02, 2016, 10:21:52 PM
Have fun with that. You are from another state with different state gov't priorities. The root of this problem goes to the state legislature. If you are not contacting your state reps, your threats are meaningless. The DNR in this case is just as much a victim as park users. Possibly moreso. They are mandated to do certain things by law but are given less and less money to do those things. Where else are they going to make up the budget shortfall but by raising user fees?
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: mtbikernate on April 03, 2016, 11:10:08 AM
Im not aware of any threats made in my post. I made a stement.
If they are in a buggetary crisis! Why not be more Fiscaly responsible?  Thats exactly the problem. Government mismanages the money. When they have a buggetary shortfall,  penalize the the masses by increasing fees because of their ineptitude.


Your posts suggest that you really don't understand what's going on with this situation. Which makes sense, since you moved here from a very different state.


You made threats about not purchasing a trails pass. wooo. Did you contact your state representative? The legislature (and governor) have repeatedly over many years passed new budgets that REDUCE the money going to the DNR for them to cover their operating costs. User fees have been part of Indiana state parks since their inception, so they won't ever go away entirely. Recently, due to a lot of stupid stuff, the legislature demanded that the DNR spend a rather large, specific amount of their existing budget on a specific project in a specific park. Which means the DNR could not spend that money where they otherwise would (probably spread out over many parks).


It is not the DNR's fault that the legislature screwed them over. Mountain bikers were NOT singled out for fee increases. LOTS of fees on DNR properties have gone up. Gate fees. Camping fees. The DNR website has a document that provides a pretty nice summary of all the fees that went up.


The current political situation in the state means that this is going to continue to happen until priorities change at the state government level. Those priorities won't change until people who live here contact their representatives about issues they deem important (like this one), and vote for representatives who will represent those issues in the legislature. Want the DNR to receive more funding and reduce user fees? Vote for someone who supports that idea in the next election. Refusing to purchase the trails pass by itself isn't going to change the reason fees went up in the first place, and won't prevent fees from going up again.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: firefighter56 on April 05, 2016, 08:55:32 PM
Nate, most of what you have said I agree with however I still feel that mountain bikers were singled out in the fees.  The other fee increases were across the board for everyone who visits the park (including mountain bikers), camps at the park or uses the park facilities that the park provides.  Mountain bikers however have been singled out to use the trail system that they created and maintain. 


In essence the DNR has said "Hikers you are welcome to come and hike on the trails for free that the DNR has made and maintains.  Equestrians you are welcome to bring your horses in and ride the trails for free that the DNR built and maintains.  Mountain bikers you are welcome to come into the park, build and maintain new mountain bike trails that are required to be multi use trails but you will be required to pay to ride them while everyone else can use them for free." 


How exactly does that not single out mountain bikers?  Volunteers built and maintain the trails yet still have to pay twice to ride them.  First they have to pay the park entrance fee, second they have to pay the fee to ride the trail.


There are a lot of ways our DNR could cut operating costs to make up for short falls in the budget.  What other state do you go to that has roaming rangers walking around the campground?  What other states have rangers bringing arts and crafts to the campground to do with the kids?  These are cool things that they do but they are also salaries and supplies that could be cut.  I would bet that if they did away with that program in 1 park it would free up more money than what they will make charging mountain bikers to ride.


Other states offer similar activities for the kids but they are at the lodge or nature center where the employees that are there run them.  Other states also require the campground host to clean the restrooms and sell firewood so the DNR isn't burdened with it but not here.  We spend more money on salaries for people to drive around cleaning the restrooms while still letting the campground host stay either for free or at a greatly reduced rate.  Some IN State parks have a camp store that takes care of the firewood but not all.


I do like the state parks and will continue to use them but I won't use them nearly as much as we used to.  We can camp at a private campground with better amenities at the campground and still go to the park to hike the trails all while spending less money.  I can also pull my camper to Ohio and stay in one of their parks for less money than it will cost me to pull it to Brown County to stay.  I feel that by continually raising user fees that our DNR is creating their own downfall.


After all that, I am planning to go to BCSP this weekend to ride and I will spend the $20 for an annual mountain biking pass while I'm there.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: mtbikernate on April 05, 2016, 11:35:58 PM
Equestrians ALREADY PAID a trail permit fee. They have for decades. MTB use fees have been brought in line with equestrians.

I do not agree with the implementation of this, but mtb's were not singled out over all users. Yes, mtb's were singled out over hikers and runners, but that treatment is very much like how equestrians are treated.

The question is now what the DNR will do with it. The money goes to the general fund. But at BCSP for example, horses have their own entrance, their own camground, and quite a few of their own facilities. You better believe that if we get charged the same, we will start demanding improved facilities.

Like how about some bike-in backcountry camping at bcsp? Or a mtb-only campground? A restroom/changing area with water and a picnic shelter at the skillet/north trailhead? A couple workstands with public tools like you can find in a few spots in Indy like the bike hub or the monon? A paved path for family riders so they don't have to ride/walk on the park roads?

Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: wabasso on April 06, 2016, 08:01:14 AM

Quote
Equestrians ALREADY PAID a trail permit fee. They have for decades. MTB use fees have been brought in line with equestrians.

I do not agree with the implementation of this, but mtb's were not singled out over all users. Yes, mtb's were singled out over hikers and runners, but that treatment is very much like how equestrians are treated.

BUT, the trails they pay the permit fee for are NOT multi-use trails. Mountain bikers, hikers & runners, are NOT allowed on the trails they pay to ride.  So, mountain bikers are not being treated the same as equestrians. :(
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: lweilenman on April 06, 2016, 11:14:20 AM
If we are paying the fee, I personally would like to see some bike only trails to start showing up.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: mtbikernate on April 06, 2016, 10:52:37 PM
BUT, the trails they pay the permit fee for are NOT multi-use trails. Mountain bikers, hikers & runners, are NOT allowed on the trails they pay to ride.  So, mountain bikers are not being treated the same as equestrians. :(
We are only just over 3 whole months into it, so it is early to draw those kinds of conclusions. Like I said, the equestrians have had the trail permit for decades.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: marthur on April 08, 2016, 12:08:53 AM
Does the HMBA receive grant money from the state for trail building?  Is there any plan to have a portion of the permit money go back to the trails?  I have no problem paying the fee if a portion goes back into the trails.  Just my 2 cents
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: firefighter56 on April 08, 2016, 08:20:57 AM
If we start seeing something for the money we are paying then I'll start supporting the fee but from what we have been told so far it is unlikely that we will see anything.  If it is to cover a budget shortfall then there will not be any money for any new amenities for the mountain bikers, the money will be absorbed into the general fund to cover operating costs. 


Even as much as I am against having to pay to ride in the State Parks I will do it and I also encourage others to pay the fee also.  Maybe some day we will see something from it, even if it is just the park staff maintaining the trails so the volunteers are not overworked for nothing.


It would be awesome to have a campground of our own, even if it is just a primitive area with a shower house to start off with.  I would most likely still use the campground that is currently there but if I were to go down with a group of bikers for the sole purpose of riding all weekend then I'd definitely use a mountain bike primitive campground.


Nate is right, it is very early in paying this fee to know what will come of it but I think we can all be assured that it will never go away.   
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: Fett on April 08, 2016, 09:58:14 AM
Does the HMBA receive grant money from the state for trail building?  Is there any plan to have a portion of the permit money go back to the trails?  I have no problem paying the fee if a portion goes back into the trails.  Just my 2 cents

We have received over $400,000 in RTP grants which are Federal grants that are administered by the DNR. These allowed us the get the great starts that we had in Brown County, Versailles, O'Bannon and Southwestway.  The permit fees do go into the general fund, but there is value in maintaining a good relationship with DNR as they they do have the power to grant access or take away access to trails for mountain bikers.

I am on the Trail Advisory Board of the DNR, which has representatives from all of the user groups and stakeholders in the parks. I can tell you that most of the other user groups are envious of how much and how quickly we have made progress in getting things done as a relatively recent user group within the DNR landscape. We really are not discriminated against. It is a testament to the quality and organization of our volunteers both on the ground and in the meeting rooms.

That being said, it does not mean that HMBA rolls over and lets something that negatively impacts us go unquestioned. But it also does not mean that we adopt a scorched earth policy with DNR when something does not go our way. If you have not been out to Yellowwood lately either trail building or riding, the trails are fantastic and that access would not have been given without the relationship with DNR.  That relationship is also, hopefully, very shortly giving us the ability to connect BCSP and Yellowwood (which also can be connected to HNF and Nebo) to create a backcountry riding experience like nothing else in the Midwest.

With all the doom and gloom about the fee, I thought it was important to point out that we are getting something for this. It is not just money down the drain.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: Allen Edwards on April 08, 2016, 10:58:36 AM
Well said, Jeff.  Well said.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: tony on April 08, 2016, 11:17:10 AM
Didn't Gov. Daniels also kick down $250,000 in state funds for building trails at Versailles, O'Bannon, and Harmonie?
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: Draggon on April 08, 2016, 12:02:45 PM
Now without sounding "Elitist or Arrogant "Nearly EVERY trail that I have rode in Indiana! I would consider BEGINNER. For perspective, Expert level trail here is Beginner trail out west or even South of the Ohio River.


You should consider a stand-up routine.  That's pretty funny for a variety of reasons.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: Paul_Arlinghaus on April 08, 2016, 01:42:10 PM
I would like to provide some back ground and answers some questions raised throughout this thread


Some have questioned the value of HMBA respect to the permit.  Keep in mind that when HMBA formed, State Parks did not allow any mountain biking.  HMBA not only fought for access in State Parks, but then built some of the best trails in the Midwest in our State Park System.  We are on track to reach 100 miles of purpose built mtb trails on State Forest and State Park land this year.  As we build trails, we continue to build better and better trails covering all types and difficulty levels. 


One thing to understand is that there are many people who would have liked to keep mountain bikes out of State Parks.  The revenue generation part of mountain biking played a big role in convincing State Parks to piss off some influential people who opposed mountain biking.  I am very certain that if it was not for pay to play that we would not have access to State Parks today. 


Some questions about State Funding.  For use on State Lands, HMBA had received $250,000 from a State Grant, $300,000 in Federal Grants, and we just got a $50,000 grant from the State (Tourism), for a total of $600,000.  All these funds are administered by the DNR and the DNR played a big role in us getting access to all these grants.  So we have to buy 30,000 permits before we equal the amount of funding we have received from or through the State.


In terms of us getting money back from the permits.  We have seen that the equestrians have benefited from their permit fees.  At the end of the year, we will know how much was raised by permits and that will provide HMBA with leverage.  We may use that leverage for more access or ask for support from Parks for trail specific projects/issues.


It is important to understand that the MTB permit is just a small part of a much bigger issue.  And that issue is political in nature.  As mountain bikers we cover all views on politics.  And politics, especially today is very decisive.  We typically steer clear of political discussions on the HMBA forums as political discussion end up being decisive and cause fracturing of the mtb community.  For this topic we will allow some political discussion, but please tread lightly (any post that is not constructive or brings in other political issues will be removed).


Our current State Leadership is very focused on lowering taxes and making government smaller.  Their view is that if the State pays for State Parks, then that comes from increased taxes.  They would rather those who use the parks to pay for them.  And those who use the parks have more money to pay for parks because their taxes are lower.  State Parks are currently about 70% self funded, and the goal of our legislator is to make them become 100% self funded.  So if any thing the trend will be for more fees.


As I mentioned mountain bikers are a diverse group and some support the State's goal for State Parks, others are strongly opposed, but many probably fall in the middle (support pay to play but are concerned it is going to far).  I can tell you that even within the HMBA board, we have a diverse range of political views.  The important thing to remember is that HMBA is focused on advocating for mountain biking.  It is ok for us to disagree on politics and work together to advance mountain biking.


Ultimately removing the mtb permit is not a battle that can be fought with State Parks or even the DNR. It is an issue for our State Legislator.  If you as a mountain biker would like to see more funding from the State Budget for recreation, please let your elected officials know.  If you would rather have lower taxes and as a result pay for user fees and permits, you can let them know that as well.  It is important to be engaged in the political process, especially as we go into an election.


HMBA does not have the resources to be successful changing our legislator's overall funding strategy in the short term.  HMBA could burn every bridge and spend every dollar fighting the permit and we would not be successful.  HMBA is going to continue to educate our members, elected leaders, and community members about the economic and health benefits trails provides to the citizens of Indiana. We will also continue to build more world class trails in our State Parks and State Forests.  We will add the permit into our advocacy tool box as we work hard increase our access and build more trails.













Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: lweilenman on April 08, 2016, 04:09:26 PM
thanks Paul I really appreciated reading that.  I think that is the type of information needed to understand the new permit and feel better about paying the fee, rather than being told to pay it and deal with it.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: Paul_Arlinghaus on April 08, 2016, 10:25:57 PM
A reminder that any posts from here on that aren't constrictive will be removed.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: marthur on April 08, 2016, 11:45:18 PM
And what a diverse group we are.  Thanks for adding that Paul, the more communication the better.  I'm personally not against the permits, I see it no different than a hunting or fishing license.  I just hope some funds finds its way back to the trails.  BTW you guys do a great job on the trails.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: firefighter56 on April 17, 2016, 03:50:48 PM
Paul, your explanation really shows the root of the issue we have at hand.  After being better educated on the matter I am coming around to (dare I say) support the MTB annual pass.  Initially I was very against it and upset that we have yet another fee to pay at the parks.  IF buying a $20 ($60 for me and my boys) pass will help keep my taxes from going up or possibly even lower them then I'm in.  I just hope this isn't another ploy to soak us for even more money with no reciprocity.


I have attempted to buy a pass already this year.  I went with a group of other riders to O'Bannon Woods last weekend and when we entered the park I tried to buy one.  The girl told me she couldn't get logged onto the computer so she couldn't sell me one.  I then asked "Don't I need one to ride?" and she answered that last Saturday was free state parks day and there were no user fees that day.  I will buy one when I ride in another State Park.


I do have a question, are the work for passes hours only applicable to hours done in State Parks or are they hours of work on any HMBA built and maintained trails?  I've been told both ways.



Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: dprimm on April 27, 2016, 12:18:39 PM
Perhaps this is a better question for the racing forum, but how does the fee impact races?  Are the racers expected to still have the pass?  Does the host organization provide them?  Or is that an exemption? 


I am NOT trying to put gasoline on the coals.  Just a thought I have wondered about for a while. 



Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: RDF73Charger on May 02, 2016, 06:43:36 AM
Just wanted to add to this thread I think all Indiana libraries have gotten two
Indiana park passes each that can be checked out.
If you are only going to hit the parks a couple of times this would save you some money.
Check with your local library.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: Paul_Arlinghaus on May 02, 2016, 12:20:44 PM
Perhaps this is a better question for the racing forum, but how does the fee impact races?  Are the racers expected to still have the pass?  Does the host organization provide them?  Or is that an exemption? 


I am NOT trying to put gasoline on the coals.  Just a thought I have wondered about for a while.


Our understanding was that riders are supposed to have a permit for races and special events.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: SSIndyRider on May 30, 2016, 06:55:23 PM
So here's a problem with the permit system. This morning I dutifully bought an annual permit at BCSP for $20. They told me I need to keep with with me while riding. Ok, where? I have 1 option - jersey pockets. While on the trails, I lost it from my pocket, either when I went over the bars on Bobcat once, or when I had to take out my phone at time a two. I was directed to go to the office about the lost pass. I took in my receipt from purchase 3 hours earlier and was told, "sorry, no refunds or replacement for lost passes". So apparently, I'm supposed to shuck out another $20 tax to be able to ride the trails, despite having already paid (yes, I said 'tax' - that's what user fees are, another word for a tax but only imposed on a specific group). Yes, this is 'constructive' - even though it's critical of the system and not a positive post about it, it doesn't make it 'non-constructive'.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: jasonhilt on May 30, 2016, 08:03:34 PM
Write to you representative and tell them how you feel about the fee, in a constructive but firm way.  The only way we will get rid of this fee is to have our representatives know how we all feel about it and how unfair it is to single out one user group that overall sees no benefit from it.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: Paul_Arlinghaus on May 30, 2016, 09:17:52 PM
Please remember that as a State Agency, State Parks are dependent on tax revenues to operate.  These funds could come from sales tax, gas tax, income tax, property tax, or fee based taxes like gate fees and permits, etc....

So if you want to mountain bike without a mtb tax (permit), be prepared to justify why other taxes should be used to fund parks.

Our Indiana and Indianapolis legislators/governor/city councilors don't feel that the average out of shape Hoosier should have to pay for parks.  It should come at no surprise that Indianapolis ranks 50th out of the largest 50 cities in the USA for health and fitness. 

http://www.indystar.com/story/news/2015/05/19/indianapolis-lags--fitness-among-top-50-us-cities/27570943/ (http://www.indystar.com/story/news/2015/05/19/indianapolis-lags--fitness-among-top-50-us-cities/27570943/)

and that Indiana as a State ranks 41st of 50 States

http://www.americashealthrankings.org/IN (http://www.americashealthrankings.org/IN)

Rather than than just complaining that the permit is unfair, please let your legislator know that health and fitness is important to you and to the State.  That user fees for Parks, especially if excessive, deter the average person or family form recreating and in turn this drives up our health care costs and decreases our tourism incomes. 

Rather than just complain that the mtb permit is unfair, please ask your legislator/city councilor to fund City and State Parks.  Indy Park and our State Parks relieve much less from the general tax base than most States.   

This is the time to reach out to candidates who are up for election.  Make them work for your vote!

Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: Traci on May 31, 2016, 06:37:04 AM
So, are you saying that even when you presented your receipt, they would not replace the lost pass?
I would think they would record it electronically so if this happened they could re-print a pass for you? Even if there was a extra $ involved, but to buy a brand new one is dumb as ever. I am sure sorry that you had this issue, and understand your frustration with it.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: JCampbell on May 31, 2016, 08:21:45 AM
I think the problem is there is nothing preventing an individual from selling their pass and then going back to claim another, and another, etc.   Ski areas get around this by using the pass holders photo on the pass, but I don't see Indiana investing in the cameras and printers needed to do this.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: Traci on May 31, 2016, 08:31:11 AM
True, I guess I never thought about that. Sad that people would possibly even think about doing that.

Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: SSIndyRider on May 31, 2016, 08:32:09 PM
I think the problem is there is nothing preventing an individual from selling their pass and then going back to claim another, and another, etc.   Ski areas get around this by using the pass holders photo on the pass, but I don't see Indiana investing in the cameras and printers needed to do this.


Yes, I understand this possibility, however it's pretty unlikely in 3 hours' time, which I immediately tried to replace it then, rather than later.


Paul, I realize that legislators and DNR leaders are responsible for the permit, but I also thought that HMBA actually conversed with DNR on this topic and would be interested in feedback based on experience, both positive and negative.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: djkouza on June 01, 2016, 09:27:29 AM
Yes, I understand this possibility, however it's pretty unlikely in 3 hours' time, which I immediately tried to replace it then, rather than later.
I understand the logic here.  But also think the reverse if you wanted to get a buy one get one by cheating saying you lost your card on your ride is the perfect time to do it.  I'd grab a saddle bag for like $10-15 and throw the card in there to ensure it doesn't get lost.  I keep mine in my hydration pack.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: bboehman on June 01, 2016, 09:35:30 AM
So, dumb question here, how much will it cost to enter Sunday for the DINO race?  Sounds like way more than the $7 for a one time ride?  I don't make it down enough right now with little ones for a year pass so is there an extra daily fee?
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: djkouza on June 01, 2016, 09:42:40 AM
So, dumb question here, how much will it cost to enter Sunday for the DINO race?  Sounds like way more than the $7 for a one time ride?  I don't make it down enough right now with little ones for a year pass so is there an extra daily fee?


$5 for a Daily pass.  And I'm pretty sure they are needed for the race, couldn't find the thread but thought I read that somewhere.  $20/yr  or $5/day
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: SSIndyRider on June 01, 2016, 04:18:01 PM

$5 for a Daily pass.  And I'm pretty sure they are needed for the race, couldn't find the thread but thought I read that somewhere.  $20/yr  or $5/day


$7 park entry fee too. Add them together.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: SSIndyRider on June 01, 2016, 04:21:16 PM
I understand the logic here.  But also think the reverse if you wanted to get a buy one get one by cheating saying you lost your card on your ride is the perfect time to do it.  I'd grab a saddle bag for like $10-15 and throw the card in there to ensure it doesn't get lost.  I keep mine in my hydration pack.


I'm suggesting they consider other means to prevent fraud. Put your photo on it, register a name with it and then require proof of ID for replacement, allow a 'virtual pass' on my phone.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: Hocky on June 01, 2016, 04:58:13 PM

I'm suggesting they consider other means to prevent fraud. Put your photo on it, register a name with it and then require proof of ID for replacement, allow a 'virtual pass' on my phone.


Development on all of those methods is probably a higher cost than they'll bring in revenue for the year of the pass itself.  hah.  That policy is nothing new, though.  It has always been the case for the annual park pass.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: Dan71 on June 01, 2016, 08:08:32 PM
So, dumb question here, how much will it cost to enter Sunday for the DINO race?  Sounds like way more than the $7 for a one time ride?  I don't make it down enough right now with little ones for a year pass so is there an extra daily fee?


The parks are have some throw back pricing this weekend, gate entrance is ten cents.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: Traci on June 02, 2016, 06:29:58 AM
State Fishing license can be done online, and saved as a PDF in case you misplace it or what not.....they could do this and help considerably. It is tracked by your social security number, so you cannot cheat the system.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: holzhaus on June 02, 2016, 11:14:54 AM
To clarify for the DINO race on Sunday...
Park entry is only ten cents per day for the weekend!
Each rider is supposed to have a day permit for riding ($5) or an annual riding pass ($20). DINO does not intend to check each rider's permit. That is up to the rider and DNR.
No reason to let costs be an issue, especially on this weekend with the discount gate fee. Come race with us.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: BSUdude on June 02, 2016, 01:48:26 PM
I'd like to put the politics of this issue aside for a moment to try and get a gauge on real world conditions:


Has anyone ever been asked to show their pass while on a ride?


This weekend I visited BSCP.  At the gate, the only reason I even paid for a pass was because I told the attendant I was mountain biking.  Then she had to ask for help just to ring up the $5.00 fee.  Clearly they are not selling a lot, even though the trails were quite busy that day.


Taking a step back, the only reason I even know about the fee is from this website.  Otherwise I wouldn't have even known to ask to pay the fee.  I didn't see it posted anywhere at the gate and wasn't asked about my intended activities at the park upon entry.


My impression is that lawmakers have added another fee to be collected but the DNR feels their limited manpower would be better spent on other necessary park activities rather than mtb fee enforcement.  The permits sold certainly aren't going to pay for a DNR officer on a bike to patrol the trails.  It would be very easy for the DNR to post an officer at an interior trailhead and check mtbers as they came by, if even for an hour or two.  Just long enough to get the word spread among the mtb the community that the rule is being enforced.  Has anyone experienced this?  If I am the DNR, this is damned-if-you-do scenario.  Any enforcement of this seemingly unadvertised fee will likely be met with anger and ill will and drive people away from the parks, hurting their gate fee revenue, let alone any potential mtb fee revenue.


Probably the best thing the DNR could do to get the fee removed is aggressively enforce, because it would piss enough people off that they would let legislators hear about it.


Am I way off here?  Not trying to avoid paying (clearly), but just got the impression the DNR (or at least the boots on the ground DNR) seems about excited about collecting this fee as mtbers are about paying it.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: PKemppainen on June 02, 2016, 03:04:44 PM
I'd like to put the politics of this issue aside for a moment to try and get a gauge on real world conditions:
Has anyone ever been asked to show their pass while on a ride?


When I entered the park last week at O'Bannon, I was asked to show my MTB pass along with my annual park entry pass.

Something to keep in mind, volunteering 40 hours in a year will not only help the trails, but will earn you a trail permit for next year.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: joshlion843 on June 02, 2016, 03:26:12 PM
i was at bcsp almost three weeks ago. pulled into the west gate with a bike on my roof. the woman came out of the shack and i was digging in my wallet for my state park annual pass and she said dont worry about it and was back in the shack before i could even ask to pay for the $20 pass. happened so quick i didnt get another word in. i intend to pay for the pass this weekend before the race. but thats my mtb fee story.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: JCampbell on June 02, 2016, 03:34:22 PM
A bit off topic, but somewhat related...


In Fall of '95 we were exploring Nebo ridge area on bikes and were stopped by 4 rangers who informed us they were going to put in an approved bike trail.  Once the trail was complete, we have to start paying to ride there and could only ride on approved bike trails.  There were no other "approved" trails at that time and BCSP didn't allow bikes off pavement so it kinda sucked.  They also said they could (would?) confiscate our bikes if we were caught off trail and/or without permits.  Permits are cheap, especially the annual pass, so I happily pay up and enjoy the wonderful trail system we have now.


Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: JCampbell on June 30, 2016, 03:30:38 PM
Normally I just wave my annual park permit at the park entrance, but this morning I also had to show my annual bike permit.  Maybe they are starting to enforce the fees?
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: djkouza on June 30, 2016, 03:45:59 PM
You could always say "I'm just riding the roads"    But I always just flash both at the same time so not sure if they would ask if I didn't.



Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: mrh0518 on October 18, 2016, 03:40:08 PM
Went down to BCSP this last weekend to ride. Unfortunately for me it's been a few years since I've made the drive down :( Awesome trails! Great job to all the volunteers down there that make those trails what they are!

When I arrived at the gate the attendant told me that I needed a bike pass to ride the trails. Wasn't very happy about that, but I said I guess i need one since I'm here to ride! (Obviously, since my bikes were on top of om car.) But then the attendant told me that if i only ride the beginner tails i wouldn't need a pass. Since I had my Wife with me this was all i was really intending to ride in the first place. The Wife isn't to confident on trails yet, but she getting better!  :D

Once we got to the trails I didn't see any signage or any DNR personal enforcing the biking permit. They only way i would have any information about this new permit came from the lady at the gate and this website. Seems like this should have been communicate better some way.

Not sure how i feel about this biking tax, but I do like the fact that at least new mountain bikers can bike for free on the beginner trails.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: mtbikernate on October 18, 2016, 10:53:55 PM
The DNR did not really spend much time thinking how they would enforce this thing when they implemented it.

Real enforcement is supposed to start in 2017, whatever that winds up being.
Title: Re: New mtb fee
Post by: Paul_Arlinghaus on October 19, 2016, 09:34:51 AM
Reminder that there is a post on the advocacy thread about being involved in the up coming election.  The governors race and state senate and rep races all are important to the topic of fees. 

The MTB fees are a political issue. The current gov and legislator would say that by decreasing the funding the state provides our DNR for recreation that they are able to keep taxes lower.  The other view point is that increased fees discourage recreation with results in lower well being, less tourism, and makes it harder to attract young workers.

As a political issue the way to have an influence is to be engaged in the upcoming election.  email, call, or attend a town hall meeting of those running for state office in your district. 

If this election goes on with out any candidates hearing from the voters about the funding issues our State Parks are facing, then you can expect fees to not only remain, but to increase in the coming years.