Hoosier Mountain Bike Association

HMBA Trail Information => Brown County State Park => Topic started by: DaChubbler on October 01, 2012, 09:41:26 AM

Title: Sunday Strava Segment rider....
Post by: DaChubbler on October 01, 2012, 09:41:26 AM
I encountered a rider twice on Sunday who was completely out of hand from a trail etiquette perspective, came up behind me unannounced, and passed me in a spot some would consider a less than desirable spot.  Ran into the dude again as I was headed up HP - I was approaching the switchback between the two trees (I'm sure you know the spot), he came flying down, and I had to get off the trail, and dismount my bike or I'd have fallen down the hill.


As I was getting started again, another rider came downhill, and asked me if I was off the bike because of the dude barreling down the hill in a Columbus Bicycle Station jersey - "Yep!"  He did the same thing to me, said the other rider.  At the top of HP, another rider without prompt, told me about that rider, and said he was practically run off the trail.


Only thing I could think this douchebag was doing was trying to for a KOM Strava segment award.  I downloaded this app, and that was the first thing I thought, 'Great, now we are going to have a bunch of Lance Armstrongs riding around BCSP'.


I get it, you want something to brag about - but how about abstaining from getting your 'King of the Mountain' award until a Monday or Tuesday mid day ride?


Be warned Srtava Segment rider with the Cbus Bicycle Station jersey, I noted your face/appearance on HP - consider this your get out of jail free card, I run into you again, and you force me off the trail, I won't be kind.


In closing - down with the Stava Segments on the weekend, just too many people.


</rant>, as you were...
Title: Re: Sunday Strava Segment rider....
Post by: Paul_Arlinghaus on October 01, 2012, 12:26:05 PM
I took out a Strava account, just so that I can see whats going on.  You can open an account then look at the segment you were on and see if any PR runs match the time you were out.  Two Riders from Columbus IN, set Strava PR's on the HP descent this Sunday. 

Weekends are not the best time to be setting Strava Down Hill PR's at BCSP.
Title: Re: Sunday Strava Segment rider....
Post by: deanarammalamma on October 01, 2012, 12:27:25 PM
Strava is a menace...
Title: Re: Sunday Strava Segment rider....
Post by: tjuillerat on October 01, 2012, 12:35:26 PM
Strava is a menace...

Where's the "Like" button when you need one...
Title: Re: Sunday Strava Segment rider....
Post by: Fett on October 01, 2012, 01:06:30 PM
I am not familiar with the 2 Columbus riders on Strava. They may own a Bicycle Station jersey, but I don't know them.  Being a Bicycle Station rider, I always like us to be in a positive light, so I will try to make sure that if I find out who it was, I will have a chat about making us look good. BTW, I was on my Ducati on Sunday, so it was not me (although, I was on the roads in the park.)
As far as Strava, It is neither good nor bad.  It is people's judgment that is the problem.  I use it, but a fall weekend is not the time to drop the hammer on the trails.  If I want a hammerfest, I usually try an obscure weekday afternoon when the trails are mostly deserted.
Title: Re: Sunday Strava Segment rider....
Post by: deanarammalamma on October 01, 2012, 01:09:17 PM
Strava is a menace...

Where's the "Like" button when you need one...

Adding Karma will do ;)
Title: Re: Sunday Strava Segment rider....
Post by: David Kuehnen on October 01, 2012, 01:19:05 PM
That would be the obvious problem with Strava.  The only metric that it registers is elapsed time per distance.   Being a decent human being and a considerate rider will only negatively affect one's Strava result.
Title: Re: Sunday Strava Segment rider....
Post by: chmaeet on October 01, 2012, 01:29:59 PM
I was out on Sunday as well and although I did not run across this guy I met a higher than normal (a lot higher) percentage of riders barreling down the hills. They were in control but unwilling to slow or move over any so I could continue my climb.  With that being said there were still a lot of guys and all of the ladies that followed the common rules of the trails, Thanks to them.  It's kinda frustrating when you yell "Rider up" and the guy does not slow, adjust or say anything and just flies by with a stone cold look.  I'm sure I would get the raw end of the deal if we clipped each other but after the 10th time on a climb I feel like holding my own.


Btw, I'm glad that the intersection sign posts have a sticker noting to yield to riders going uphill.  At least that can be pointed out to someone if they don't know what you are talking about.
Title: Re: Sunday Strava Segment rider....
Post by: gmcttr on October 01, 2012, 05:01:20 PM
...how about abstaining from getting your 'King of the Mountain' award until a Monday or Tuesday mid day ride?...

And then they will run into me. With my lack of attention and slow reaction time there's going to be a wreck. I'll show 'em by bleeding all over them.
Title: Re: Sunday Strava Segment rider....
Post by: David Kuehnen on October 01, 2012, 05:06:00 PM
I would prefer people try for their KOM award only when the course is closed to the public(i.e a sanctioned race event)
Title: Re: Sunday Strava Segment rider....
Post by: gt ss on October 01, 2012, 05:12:04 PM
A few years ago I removed the cyclocomputers off of my bikes, I don't own a HRM and my flip phone won't do Strava. I just feel like you can fall into a trap racing against yourself let alone your Strava competitors.

It is tremendously more enjoyable riding without those distractions.
Title: Re: Sunday Strava Segment rider....
Post by: timmsteiner on October 01, 2012, 08:15:32 PM
I was out Sunday as well.  There were a lot of people having a great time and enjoying the weather and the great trail conditions.  Most were friendly.

I think there is a huge lack of understanding about who has the right of way.  The barrelling downhill rider does not get the right of way.  I'm sure those that read the forum probably know this.

Perhaps signs should be posted to clarify for those less knowledgeable (not just the small sign posts):

IMBA Rules of the Trail #4: Yield Appropriately - "...Bicyclists traveling downhill should yield to ones headed uphill..."

Perhaps a big sign with the IMBA Rules at each trailhead.  I'll donate it if need be.




Title: Re: Sunday Strava Segment rider....
Post by: gnawbonelefty on October 02, 2012, 03:25:18 PM
I was out Sunday as well.  There were a lot of people having a great time and enjoying the weather and the great trail conditions.  Most were friendly.

I think there is a huge lack of understanding about who has the right of way.  The barrelling downhill rider does not get the right of way.  I'm sure those that read the forum probably know this.

Perhaps signs should be posted to clarify for those less knowledgeable (not just the small sign posts):

IMBA Rules of the Trail #4: Yield Appropriately - "...Bicyclists traveling downhill should yield to ones headed uphill..."

Perhaps a big sign with the IMBA Rules at each trailhead.  I'll donate it if need be.


this one is kind of big and pricey,  but at 48"x54" it would not be missed!  I think one at the top of hp and another at the top of the North Gate would get the message across.

(http://statewidesafety.com/assets/taxons/307171227/product/R55%20%28CA%29.png?1340058746)

http://statewidesafety.com/t/signs/aluminum-signs/regulatory-signs/r55ca (http://statewidesafety.com/t/signs/aluminum-signs/regulatory-signs/r55ca)


Probably more appropriate would be.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-hhzDEMYNe9k/UGs-rgBldNI/AAAAAAAACqw/HEvchj-9Zsg/s500/2656630009_27f6b328e6.jpg)

Sunday a cyclist friend of mine was hiking the trail and told by a rider to go elsewhere.
Title: Re: Sunday Strava Segment rider....
Post by: too_many_cats on October 02, 2012, 04:09:32 PM
I was out on Sunday, too, and didn't notice people bombing downhill without yielding, but I did overhear one person say to another that they'd have the right of way going downhill on HP. (Cue a 'WTF?' expression.) I should have said something.

More anecdotal evidence in support of a big sign. I'm happy to chip in, too.
Title: Re: Sunday Strava Segment rider....
Post by: gmcttr on October 02, 2012, 04:19:41 PM
...Sunday a cyclist friend of mine was hiking the trail and told by a rider to go elsewhere.

AAAaaarrrrhhhhh!!!!

I vote for the first sign. The message is lost in the second one (you'd actually have to stop and read it).
Title: Re: Sunday Strava Segment rider....
Post by: gnawbonelefty on October 02, 2012, 04:38:33 PM
I found some that we can attach to the carsonite signs for $.85 at rockart.
rockart requires a $50 minimum order.  Next time we place an order, I'll make sure we get some.
If anyone else know a source with a smaller minimum, let me know.

(http://www.rockartsigns.com/rockartstore55/html/images/10-224_sm.gif)
..R
Title: Re: Sunday Strava Segment rider....
Post by: MikeHufhand on October 02, 2012, 04:40:59 PM
We're a victim of our own success.  A big part of a comprehensive solution is MORE trails.  Mountain biking is very popular for a lot of reasons.   25 miles is just not enough trail especially if you take out Walnut, Schooner, and really Limekiln too since its disconnected from the other beg/intermedia trails.  And 25 miles isn't enough considering what BCSP has become, and that's a destination mountain bike trail system.


We need to do a better job of conveying this to the DNR and to other statewide leaders. And I include ME in that WE!
Title: Re: Sunday Strava Segment rider....
Post by: Paul_Arlinghaus on October 02, 2012, 04:44:18 PM
I am working on a rock art order and will get some yielding signs.

No matter the size of the sign the most important way to encourage good manners is for riders to speak up. 

Politely inform newer riders of the need to yield.  Speak up when you hear someone say something incorrect.  Make sure your riding group is setting a good example.

The signs help when someone wants to argue with you. 
Title: Re: Sunday Strava Segment rider....
Post by: Shark on October 02, 2012, 04:57:46 PM
Here's something I have been thinking about, let me know what you think...

Many times new riders do not know the rules (ie, not riding muddy trails, yielding to uphill riders etc etc) just because they've never been informed.

Personally, the first year I started, I had NO CLUE that riding in the mud was bad. It was fun. Add to that, many new riders are not even aware of HMBA/IMBA, not aware of the forums, etc. It was a couple years of riding until I knew about the HMBA.


I am curious if something as simple as a flyer given to anyone buying a bike from a LBS, that has a list of common rules, links to the HMBA & IMBA websites would be helpful. Might help to inform newer riders of things they don't know about until they get into regular riding. Shouldn't cost too much to get a few thousand flyers printed up, and give a pile to each LBS around town to hand out when they sell a bike, or helmet or whatever.

Whaddya think?
Title: Re: Sunday Strava Segment rider....
Post by: gnawbonelefty on October 02, 2012, 05:02:39 PM
Here's something I have been thinking about, let me know what you think...

Many times new riders do not know the rules (ie, not riding muddy trails, yielding to uphill riders etc etc) just because they've never been informed.

Personally, the first year I started, I had NO CLUE that riding in the mud was bad. It was fun. Add to that, many new riders are not even aware of HMBA/IMBA, not aware of the forums, etc. It was a couple years of riding until I knew about the HMBA.


I am curious if something as simple as a flyer given to anyone buying a bike from a LBS, that has a list of common rules, links to the HMBA & IMBA websites would be helpful. Might help to inform newer riders of things they don't know about until they get into regular riding. Shouldn't cost too much to get a few thousand flyers printed up, and give a pile to each LBS around town to hand out when they sell a bike, or helmet or whatever.

Whaddya think?

Imba has printed out for us a number of join post cards.  they are preety nice,  bu tno where on them do they mention the hmba web site, and good luck getting to the hmba web site from imba.com there are no links.
Title: Re: Sunday Strava Segment rider....
Post by: chuckdlou on October 02, 2012, 05:23:15 PM
paul, when i put the stickers on the posts at BC we ran out before i was done...i'll check tomorrow or thursday and let you know what we still need to finish...
Title: Re: Sunday Strava Segment rider....
Post by: tommarsh on October 02, 2012, 05:32:09 PM
I was riding Sunday morning and was one of the people that set a PR down hesitation but i don't own a bicycle station top and i stopped twice to let climbers by... yes im just that slow down hill... also started the ride at 9am to avoid the traffic. There were a couple of groups out riding at a similar time that several people said hadn't stopped for climbers. Don't think Strava is the cause, there are just people out there who never stop for climbers.
Title: Re: Sunday Strava Segment rider....
Post by: Justin Whitaker on October 02, 2012, 05:34:00 PM
Let me know if you need flyers or any type of promo stuff done. I do graphic design and I'd be happy to do it for my cost or cheaper. Also, still wanted to make up some business cards as well that we talked about during the HOE.

Justin
Title: Re: Sunday Strava Segment rider....
Post by: gt ss on October 02, 2012, 06:25:47 PM
IMO, the large sign with very limited info would be the most helpful.

I know that signage can become too much but just like speed limit signs, could there be reminder signs along the trail where the trail tilts DH? Or even reminding riders they have the right of way going UH??

It doesn't help that some riders don't know they don't have to yield going uphill either. We take for granted the basic rules of the trail that many, many don't know.

There will still be those that don't care but maybe scattered -one rule per sign- signs would be more helpful.
Title: Re: Sunday Strava Segment rider....
Post by: Shark on October 02, 2012, 07:54:48 PM
Aside from trailhead markers and maps, please, no signs on the trails...
Title: Re: Sunday Strava Segment rider....
Post by: Fett on October 02, 2012, 09:45:30 PM
I have a suggestion that was given to me by a first time rider out at BCSP on Saturday. Most of the first riders out there are carrying the maps provided by the park which labels all of the trails by a letter deisgnation. I realize that there is a key on the map that links the letter to a trail, but many people do not.
I have been asked by many riders "Is this trail A (or B, etc)"  Can we put a letter designation on the trail markers to make navigation easier?  I would be happy to purchase the letters and put them on the markers if this is deemed a good idea.
Title: Re: Sunday Strava Segment rider....
Post by: Kswiss on October 03, 2012, 08:29:25 AM
[size=78%]I have been asked by many riders "Is this trail A (or B, etc)"  Can we put a letter designation on the trail markers to make navigation easier?  I would be happy to purchase the letters and put them on the markers if this is deemed a good idea.[/size]


Then Brown County will turn into "Hey lets go hit trail C and finish up on trail B".  I don't think that we should pander to those who can't read a map.
Title: Re: Sunday Strava Segment rider....
Post by: Fett on October 03, 2012, 09:05:26 AM
[size=78%]I have been asked by many riders "Is this trail A (or B, etc)"  Can we put a letter designation on the trail markers to make navigation easier?  I would be happy to purchase the letters and put them on the markers if this is deemed a good idea.[/size]


Then Brown County will turn into "Hey lets go hit trail C and finish up on trail B".  I don't think that we should pander to those who can't read a map.
I do not disagree with you, as I never want it to become a trail system of letters.   I think that having the letter on the trail marker along with the name of the trail will help rider associate the name of the trail with the letter.  As the numbers of first timers grow all of the time, I do want pander to making their initial experience as fun as possible, so they keep coming back and our numbers grow.
Title: Re: Sunday Strava Segment rider....
Post by: john7722 on October 03, 2012, 10:10:52 AM
Why are common sense solutions always ignored when it comes to marking trails ?
If the park map has letter designations for the trails ! Then put that letter on the marker @ the trail Junctions. Am I crazy ? Or is that a logical solution?
I am dumbfounded at the lack of  proper yet simple trail markings.
I cannot even tell you how many people we come across that Brown County that are lost and turned around or can't find the parking lot from which they started!
How about a "P" for Parking? pretty simple and straight forward and LOGICAL!
Don't use lack of funding as an excuse ! Several people on this forum have offered to pay! I have offered to pay for markers  @ O'Bannon, but that was quickly denied.
I have said it before and I will continue to say it! Indiana has some of the poorest mark trails I have ever been on ! It simply cannot be this difficult to get the trails marked properly.
Title: Re: Sunday Strava Segment rider....
Post by: gnawbonelefty on October 03, 2012, 10:46:10 AM
Why are common sense solutions always ignored when it comes to marking trails ?
If the park map has letter designations for the trails ! Then put that letter on the marker @ the trail Junctions. Am I crazy ? Or is that a logical solution?
I am dumbfounded at the lack of  proper yet simple trail markings.
I cannot even tell you how many people we come across that Brown County that are lost and turned around or can't find the parking lot from which they started!
How about a "P" for Parking? pretty simple and straight forward and LOGICAL!
Don't use lack of funding as an excuse ! Several people on this forum have offered to pay! I have offered to pay for markers  @ O'Bannon, but that was quickly denied.
I have said it before and I will continue to say it! Indiana has some of the poorest mark trails I have ever been on ! It simply cannot be this difficult to get the trails marked properly.

the proper trail names are on the handout map given.  but to save space letters are used as a key to the map.  Most people who get lost don't understand the concept of a map key.  you can't fix stupid.
Title: Re: Sunday Strava Segment rider....
Post by: Shane Pettiner on October 03, 2012, 10:49:43 AM
I don't think it is new riders bombing down hills. It is most likely people who have been riding for a while and they probably know the rules of the trail, i just think they don't give a crap. I might be stereo typing here, but new riders don't typically wear some kind of "kit" when they first start. There are days i'm surprised there are not fist fights from trail users arguing over who has the right of way.
Title: Re: Sunday Strava Segment rider....
Post by: heartland on October 03, 2012, 10:52:04 AM
Why are common sense solutions always ignored when it comes to marking trails ?
If the park map has letter designations for the trails ! Then put that letter on the marker @ the trail Junctions. Am I crazy ? Or is that a logical solution?
I am dumbfounded at the lack of  proper yet simple trail markings.
I cannot even tell you how many people we come across that Brown County that are lost and turned around or can't find the parking lot from which they started!
How about a "P" for Parking? pretty simple and straight forward and LOGICAL!
Don't use lack of funding as an excuse ! Several people on this forum have offered to pay! I have offered to pay for markers  @ O'Bannon, but that was quickly denied.
I have said it before and I will continue to say it! Indiana has some of the poorest mark trails I have ever been on ! It simply cannot be this difficult to get the trails marked properly.

Uh....

I think the BCSP trails are pretty well marked. I mean, there is a map at each intersection. Some people will get lost no matter what, and there may be room for improvement, but the trails are well signed IMHO. Heck, some places (the Slaty Fork area in WV springs to mind) have far more trails and far less signage. You can't get around that place without a good topo map and the skills to read it.

Regarding the letters -- there is also a key at the bottom of the state park map that explains the "D" trail = Hesitation Point etc., so I'd hazard the guess that maybe, just maybe, those folks aren't reading the map too carefully (or haven't been taught how to read maps). Adding letters to the intersection signs might help, but I don't think it's 100% necessary.

Regarding inconsiderate/uninformed downhillers -- I've noticed an uptick in people not yielding as well. My strategy has been to (firmly but politely, so far) say something like "Yield to the uphill rider, please." I'm in favor of adding the "Yield"  sign to the major trail heads.
Title: Re: Sunday Strava Segment rider....
Post by: john7722 on October 03, 2012, 11:34:21 AM

 No one seems to realize that for those of us that ride Brown County all the time ! Navigation is pretty straightforward . Now remove yourself from being a local rider. Put yourself in the position of a new rider or new visitor to Brown County! the Maps and markers can be confusing. Part of the blame but not all can be given to the rider for not knowing how to read a map.
Title: Re: Sunday Strava Segment rider....
Post by: tommarsh on October 03, 2012, 11:49:14 AM
Some of the most common questions i get asked when at intersections are
 
1. Which way is back to the north gate parking lot?
 
2. Which way is hesitation point?
 
Maybe adding signs that point to the major trail heads would help at every intersection.
Title: Re: Sunday Strava Segment rider....
Post by: too_many_cats on October 03, 2012, 12:40:44 PM
I like the opportunity to talk to riders new to the park when I see them puzzling over the park map at an intersection. I get to feel friendly and helpful, find out a little about them, and maybe they go away thinking that BCSP has nice folks as well as nice trails. Plus, I get to learn about the trails where they live that I should visit.

I think adding letters to the existing signs would be helpful but not strictly necessary since it isn't that hard to take a moment to ask if someone is lost or how they like the park. Just my $0.02.
Title: Re: Sunday Strava Segment rider....
Post by: gnawbonelefty on October 03, 2012, 12:55:17 PM

 No one seems to realize that for those of us that ride Brown County all the time ! Navigation is pretty straightforward . Now remove yourself from being a local rider. Put yourself in the position of a new rider or new visitor to Brown County! the Maps and markers can be confusing. Part of the blame but not all can be given to the rider for not knowing how to read a map.

I hear comments all the time that the trails are well marked and easy to navigate.   I have shown lost hikers the fastest ways out before, because they've gone too far.  but the routes I've shown aren't on the maps. they were not lost,  just out longer than they planned.
,anyway.  I would support the (https://www.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSTp5h6j-uvP-HgKWwjAq-UOobUb1V79kYOHf-bvB3Je7DbinetW_H6-w) with an arrow symbol pointing to the fastest way back to the north gate.  that would help way more than letters.  We did have maps at the intersections at one point,  but we outgrew them quickly.

On a side note,  it's interesting a thread on gps riders turns into folks getting lost.,  maybe the answer is in the subject.  the horse trails all have letters,  but being loops, it doesn't really help you figure the best way back.
there is one sign out the at a 5 way  intersection all with distances back to the car.
Title: Re: Sunday Strava Segment rider....
Post by: Webby on October 03, 2012, 01:51:03 PM
I just started riding back in June of this yr..   Here is where I stand on some of the issues brought up on this thread.

Since I started riding in June,, I've only worn my camo pants while riding (new digital style) with some sort of "T" shirt. I ride a Raleigh Talus 5.0 with RED rims.  So, if I have ever caused you some sort of grief on the trails it was purely out of NOT KNOWING I was doing it and I APOLOGIZE to you,,, believe me, I'd never do it out of disrespect. If I ever do, just let me know so the next time I'll know what "NOT" to do.  :D

Oh,,  and I must say that VSP has the best SIGNAGE I've found yet.  Being a NOOB, they helped me a bunch as I didn't have to dig my map out of my pocket, which was soaked with sweat and falling apart and try to figure out where I was. They even have the "YOU ARE HERE" logo on the trail map at each intersection.   8) 8)

Have a great day ladies and gents. I'm off tomorrow and I'm hoping for a GREEN @ BCSP.   ;)
Title: Re: Sunday Strava Segment rider....
Post by: Hocky on October 03, 2012, 02:49:31 PM
The trail marking at VSP is definitely excellent.  Those posted maps made it quick and easy to ride for the first time.
Title: Re: Sunday Strava Segment rider....
Post by: Shark on October 03, 2012, 04:07:54 PM
The park maps don't help with references to letters and most general public not understanding how to read the key.
If the map was color coded and the name of each trail beside, that would be better for most I'd guess. Also, mini maps with "You are here" at the intersections would help. I've guided out some folks that were going in circles for hours. For those that can't navigate or read a map, the you are here pointers might be the only thing available.
Title: Re: Sunday Strava Segment rider....
Post by: wabasso on October 03, 2012, 05:13:33 PM
I got an e-mail from a friend of mine that has never ridden at BCSP.   Loves to ride technical trials.  So he wanted to go to BC to ride trail “H." I'm like .. What is he talking about?  I ride there all the time & don't know trail "H".   Turned out once I looked at the BCSP trail map it was Schooner.  He’s getting the letter “H” right off the map, so why would he call it “Schooner”?   

You've got Epic Trail status!  (Yay BCSP!)  You have lots of guests from everywhere.  Why not make it as easy as possible to navigate?

... & I don't understand not handing out a simple card with "Trail Etiquette" (I modified the IMBA just slightly) right with the trail map at the front gate.  The same triangle of yield applies to everyone that is asking for a trail map right? 


(http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l254/reff421/IMBA%20Card/IMBA.jpg)
Title: Re: Sunday Strava Segment rider....
Post by: David Kuehnen on October 03, 2012, 05:43:37 PM
The hiking trails only have a number but the mountain bike trails  and shelters all have unique names so it does not make sense to call them by their letters.     Those letters only have relevance in the context of the state park map, so we would really only be adding to the larger pool of confusion if those letters were added tot he trail markers.  The inclusion of the map key letters  on the markers would also make them too "wordy" , and that is not good for any sign.


I think that there is a decent amount of signage on the trails but I would also agree that maps mounted to the information kiosks  at North Tower lot, Upper Shelter, Hesitation Point, Hoosier's Nest and the Campground would definite help people understand the layout of the trails better. 
Title: Re: Sunday Strava Segment rider....
Post by: ess121212 on October 03, 2012, 08:58:58 PM
Why dont we make the trails oneway ? Change the direction every week. I dont like it, but someone is going to get hurt. Not to mention, I am riding with my son , who is 4 , I am worried about someone smoking him. They would have to add some more trails for conectors, but with ALL the people that ride there. Just think how many times you have about bit with someone. Just saying   
Title: Re: Sunday Strava Segment rider....
Post by: Webby on October 03, 2012, 09:08:13 PM
The park maps don't help with references to letters and most general public not understanding how to read the key.
If the map was color coded and the name of each trail beside, that would be better for most I'd guess. Also, mini maps with "You are here" at the intersections would help. I've guided out some folks that were going in circles for hours. For those that can't navigate or read a map, the you are here pointers might be the only thing available.

hehe  I once had my map in my pant pocket and after about 2-1/2 miles into it I realized I'd lost my map.  Then after continuing on. I found a map that someone else had lost.  :D   Funny how that works !  lol  I've been at BCSP enough now that I don't really need a map. But, when you go to a NEW place. THEY sure are nice to have.  Just sayin'

Oh, and I too have a friend that is more than capable of reading maps & keys on maps. But, when I've talked of riding @ BCSP and I mentioned WALNUT trail to him. He said, " is that trail F " ?  Then I have to get my map out and look @ the key to see which trail Walnut is. He had only ridden there a few times. But, had never ridden Walnut yet. So, I guess different ppl have different ways of remembering trails. 
Title: Re: Sunday Strava Segment rider....
Post by: Unfit Nitwit on October 03, 2012, 09:21:30 PM
The "P" sign would be great, since most of the time I see people trying to figure their way back to the parking lot.
Just so long as there is no trail "P" on the map to get confused with, right?
Title: Re: Sunday Strava Segment rider....
Post by: Shark on October 03, 2012, 09:49:10 PM
Why dont we make the trails oneway ? Change the direction every week. I dont like it, but someone is going to get hurt. Not to mention, I am riding with my son , who is 4 , I am worried about someone smoking him. They would have to add some more trails for conectors, but with ALL the people that ride there. Just think how many times you have about bit with someone. Just saying
One way trails are boring! Yes, they are needed when there is limited mileage and alot of riders, like town run. But not at places like bcsp that has over 30 miles.
Maybe you should only let your 4 year old ride directional trails until he is old enough that it is safe for him.
In 9 years of riding, I have never, not once, run into anyone or had anyone run into me
Title: Re: Sunday Strava Segment rider....
Post by: Steve King on October 03, 2012, 10:17:54 PM
Why dont we make the trails oneway ? Change the direction every week. I dont like it, but someone is going to get hurt. Not to mention, I am riding with my son , who is 4 , I am worried about someone smoking him. They would have to add some more trails for conectors, but with ALL the people that ride there. Just think how many times you have about bit with someone. Just saying
One way trails are boring! Yes, they are needed when there is limited mileage and alot of riders, like town run. But not at places like bcsp that has over 30 miles.
Maybe you should only let your 4 year old ride directional trails until he is old enough that it is safe for him.
In 9 years of riding, I have never, not once, run into anyone or had anyone run into me


The only time I ever had a head on collision was at Town Run, a one way trail.
Title: Re: Sunday Strava Segment rider....
Post by: Webby on October 03, 2012, 10:24:47 PM
Why dont we make the trails oneway ? Change the direction every week. I dont like it, but someone is going to get hurt. Not to mention, I am riding with my son , who is 4 , I am worried about someone smoking him. They would have to add some more trails for conectors, but with ALL the people that ride there. Just think how many times you have about bit with someone. Just saying
One way trails are boring! Yes, they are needed when there is limited mileage and alot of riders, like town run. But not at places like bcsp that has over 30 miles.
Maybe you should only let your 4 year old ride directional trails until he is old enough that it is safe for him.
In 9 years of riding, I have never, not once, run into anyone or had anyone run into me


The only time I ever had a head on collision was at Town Run, a one way trail.

 :o WHOOPS ! 
Title: Re: Sunday Strava Segment rider....
Post by: ess121212 on October 03, 2012, 10:30:36 PM
This has been a on going problem, just look at past post. Everyone has the right to be able to ride safe on public trails. I am glade you have not been hit, but I have and come close to someone hitting me at least one time a year. By the way, Evan rides just as good as alot or better than half the vistors to the park. He is only good for around 7 miles , but he is getting alot faster. Its not the vistors I worry about it is the the Guys who know better . Just remember, Mt. biking is a family sport.
Title: Re: Sunday Strava Segment rider....
Post by: Shark on October 04, 2012, 07:31:24 AM
Sorry I worded that poorly.

It is great your kid is riding at that age, they are the future of the sport! I'm saying that not all trails will ever be 100% safe, it's the nature of the sport.

You wouldn't send a teen with a learners license to drive on i94 near chicago for the first while right? Same thing.

Maybe if the trails were straight, no hills, paved....oh wait I bet there are more accidents on the monon....;) it all comes down to riding responsibly.
Title: Re: Sunday Strava Segment rider....
Post by: gmcttr on October 04, 2012, 08:25:07 AM
... it all comes down to riding responsibly.

And.......we're back to where these discussions inevitably lead. Although I do like the idea of the 48"x54" sign at the entrance to HP.
Title: Re: Sunday Strava Segment rider....
Post by: gnawbonelefty on October 04, 2012, 08:49:38 AM
Ok,  I'll post a thread encapsulation for those joining us late,

Brown county is busy,  especially on saturday and sunday  between 10am and 4pm on a fall weekend.  If you ride during these times expect to see lots of riders (responsibility)
yield to uphill riders, watch for riders coming the other way, communicate the rules of the trails.

I would also like to point out, I did two rides on sunday,  one at a crowded trail system at a social pace and had a blast,  another at an empty trail system and was able to bomb down hills with abandon and never even saw another rider.  you have a choice where and when you ride.

People get lost at brown county and the maps handed out at the gates and our sign are inadequate.
If someone has one of those maps and starts talking inquiring about a letter trail,  I show them the key on the pamphlet, and they usually have no more problems.  Plus I think your never lost in a crowd.
we used to have maps at the intersections,  but they were always rapidly outdated by new construction.  (responsibility know how to navigate before going or download a trail kml to your gps smartphone, or help anyone who seems lost,  if your not alone your not lost)

We need more miles of trails at the brown county park, this will fix many overcrowding issues.  (The plans are progressing and expect construction to start late this fall or winter). (a responsibility to get out and help)




Title: Re: Sunday Strava Segment rider....
Post by: rpmarheine on October 04, 2012, 10:28:02 AM
I have ridden trail systems all across the country. Some are not marked at all some you can't get lost on. In my experience Brown County is somewhere in the middle, well marked but potentially confusing to first timers. One of my favorite aids is trail maps at major intersections. Nothing big, say 8"x10" or so, but it helps those who don't have a map or have a map but don't know where they are on it.


I don't know how many times I have heard from local riders "oh its easy just stay on the trail and you can't get lost" only to find a tangled web of rouge trails. What is simple to the everyday rider might not be so obvious to the first timer.
 Also there is a safety concern with making sure riders know where they are in the park in case of an emergency.
Title: Re: Sunday Strava Segment rider....
Post by: Paul_Arlinghaus on October 04, 2012, 12:01:17 PM
 Lots of topics covered.
 
 The good news is that a lot of the issues discussed are due to many more people riding mountain bikes at BCSP.  The mountain bike ranks of Indiana are growing and riders from other states are coming here to ride.
 
 Some new riders are already athletic (runners, roadies, etc..) who come with strong engines but sometimes lack technical skills and an understanding of trail etiquette.  Other new riders may have no outdoor or athletic back grounds. 
I have said this many times, but I will say it again.  The most important way to engage and educate new riders is to talk to them.  The burden falls on the experience local riders to speak up and engage new riders and if needed inform them when their actions are not appropriate. If local riders are waiting for some one from Indianapolis and take care of all the issues, they will be waiting a long time.

Signage:  There are a lot of factors that go into signage.  If you put up too much info, people don’t take the time to read it.  So we have to be brief in our message.  We also have to ensure the park manager’s wishes are taken into account.  Some Park Managers want lots of signs, some don’t. 
There is an update to BCSP’s signage in process.  The Park Manager wants emergency rescue location markers.  They will be placed along the trail in strategic location with respect to search and rescue.  They will have a sticker stating to call 911 in case of emergency and have a location id.  The location id will use the Park’s letter system and the locations will be numbered.  So Locations on North Tower will be A1, A2, etc…
I will also get some more stickers on yielding.  The maps were made by Hank and Bike Jerseys.  I will see if he is able to print some more that include green valley.
On topics like signage and tree removal, I often get opposing viewpoints.  Some want me to coddle riders by removing every log and putting up so many signs that they can’t get lost.  Others want me to leave logs and be minimal on signage so riders learn how to hop logs and read a map.  I try to find the middle ground.  I rode on trails last month in N. GA that had almost no signage.  If I expected every trail to be navigable without taking a map, I might still be out there.  BCSP isn’t that big or rugged, and sometimes getting lost is part of the adventure.

Handouts:  What the gate attendants can hand out is limited for a number of reasons.  We are not the only users of the park.  If there is an mtb handout, then how about a horse barn handout, a hikers handout, a geocache hand out, etc….  It would be better to have weather proof box at the trail heads with info, but then we would need a local rider to stay on top of keeping the boxes full.
Down Hill yielding:  Again, it is up to the local riders to set a good example and educate new riders.  When a new rider gets blown off the trail by a down-hill rider wearing a local jersey.  The message is that downhill riders have the right away.  I will try to throw to gather a temporary sign for the top of HP and get it up this weekend.  Keep in mind that when you are descending, that even if the uphill rider pulls over, you still need to slow down.  You need to make sure the uphill rider knows that if you needed to that you would have stopped.  When riding in a group, the first rider has more responsibility.  If you are leading a group, you need to ensure your whole group can safely get by, or you need to stop your whole group.  Groups going down hill can be bad news.  If the first rider squeezes by an uphill rider at full speed, then he just lead his group head on into the climbing rider. 
Hikers:  We absolutely want hikers to feel comfortable on our trails.  Anyone telling hikers or mountain bikers otherwise is wrong.  Those hikers could easily be DNR staff, relatives of other mountain biker, etc…  Even if a hiker steps off the trail for you, slow down when passing them. 
One way trails: The trail system at BCSP was not designed to be one way.  One way trails still have plenty of user interaction issues.  I deal with aggressive passing at Town Run every year.  Riders also fell that they don’t have to be under control on one way trails, which make hiker/biker interactions worse.  Riders need to be under control of their bikes.  We have a new trail in development that may be one way specific.  But the existing trails will remain two way. 
Strava: It pisses me off to no end that Strava allows and that riders post downhill segments on busy single track trails.  It is irresponsible.  Do not post downhill segments on HMBA trails.  This is an issue I will be discussing at the IMBA world summit next week.  Keep in mind that your speed and date of riding a segment are public knowledge.  If you ride for a team or club and I can correlate your fast times to a report of reckless riding, your team shop will be notified. 
While the vast majority of riders don't read this forum, the point is that those who do, need to help HMBA welcome and educate new riders.